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Author Topic: To Fornovo and Back Again!  (Read 733 times)

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2019, 09:09:51 PM »
Cracking little scene! :-* I can't wait to see what else you produce!

Looking forward to this mate

Cheers
Matt

Thanks guys, much appreciated support.

The project has really got my blood up. (Nearly as much as watching Jofra Archer bowl at the Aussies earlier today! ;) )

Kind Regards
Just Add Water II Blog (Painting etc):
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Offline Charlie_

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2019, 09:15:04 PM »
Charlie,
I've just realised that you were likely asking about how I would be painting the infantry(?).

Actually no, I was talking more about the sort of troops you will use to represent Italian infantry, something I'm rather curious about as I'll be doing it myself sometime.

The first Italian War has several iconic troop types - French Ordonnance cavalry/men-at-arms/gendarmes.... Swiss pikemen in French service..... Italian heavy cavalry.... Stradiots and other Italian light cavalry....... And then the Italian infantry which seems a bit of a mystery to me. I believe the French also had Milanese infantry on their side?

Were they pikemen? Mostly crossbowmen? What about these chaps with oval shields and swords or spears, which we often see depicted in period art, and the Perrys have done one really nice set of sculpts for? Were such troops fielded in large numbers? Did they fight in closed ranks or as skirmishers? Were they fielded by themselves, or interspersed with missile troops or pikemen?
Would the Italian infantry be more or less the same as all other European infantry just with a slightly different sense of fashion, or would they actually be quite distinct in their armament and battlefield role?
I'd love to know more!

Offline pete17

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2019, 09:42:53 PM »
Hi Darrell have a look here http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/thumbs/146991 and here https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8426259s/f23.planchecontact and the hespiris manuscript depicting scenes from the life of Sigismundo Malatesta suggests Italians had a mixture of pike, sword armed, handgun, javelin and crossbowmen behind a rank of oval shielded spear armed types; I've got a link to the manuscript somewhere but can't find it at theminute however here's a pic there's better images illustrating the point above in the manuscript.

cheers Pete

Offline pete17

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Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2019, 10:04:10 PM »
Bare in mind Sigismondo Malatesta died in 1468 and those scenes are from La battaglia di Piombino 1448.


Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2019, 10:15:10 PM »
Bare in mind Sigismondo Malatesta died in 1468 and those scenes are from La battaglia di Piombino 1448.



Yeah, it's likely 'Italian' tactics would have caught up with most of Mainland Europe by 1495.

Still, these pictures/links are very inspirational so please keep them coming  :-* :-* :-*

Kind Regards

Offline pete17

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2019, 10:23:25 PM »
True, my guess is Italian Infantry used similar tactics until the French and Swiss gave them a bit of a shock and that's why anything different is given a worthy mention such as Pike from the Romagna, Venetians at Agnadello, that's  if they did have pikes.  Now working out what the French and Spanish infantry formations looks like is a real challenge.  This Link from 1513 has some inspirational images including dismounted French archers https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique

cheers Pete
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 10:38:00 PM by pete17 »

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2019, 11:09:45 PM »
True, my guess is Italian Infantry used similar tactics until the French and Swiss gave them a bit of a shock and that's why anything different is given a worthy mention such as Pike from the Romagna, Venetians at Agnadello, that's  if they did have pikes.  Now working out what the French and Spanish infantry formations looks like is a real challenge.  This Link from 1513 has some inspirational images including dismounted French archers https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique

cheers Pete

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the gents with the large shields armed with spears were used a bit like Dopplesoldiers or Swiss Halberdiers. Obviously this is absolute speculation on  my part.

Worth looking into further though. Perhaps the odd few protecting the flanks of the Italian pike? Hmmmmmm......... ;) :)

Kind Regards

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2019, 11:14:29 PM »
Horsing around on my Blog again  ;) ;D

It's just a few notes on how I plan to paint the mounts up and how I intend to go about it. Nothing major.

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/a-quick-note-on-painting-horses.html

Kind Regards

Offline syrinx0

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2019, 01:28:16 AM »
Real life can often interfere with the fun stuff.  Welcome back to painting.  Looking forward to your pictures.   
I really need to start painting socks on my horses, it adds a lot.
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Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2019, 02:24:25 AM »
True, my guess is Italian Infantry used similar tactics until the French and Swiss gave them a bit of a shock and that's why anything different is given a worthy mention such as Pike from the Romagna, Venetians at Agnadello, that's  if they did have pikes.  Now working out what the French and Spanish infantry formations looks like is a real challenge.  This Link from 1513 has some inspirational images including dismounted French archers https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique

cheers Pete
There was no shock from the French and Swiss, other than the occasional atrocities, and what was perpetuated by those with an agenda: Machiavelli and Guicciardini. The Risorgimento, like any nationalist movement, created tales to explain why Italy was disunited and prey for foreigners and fascists added to it. Then biased Anglophones, like Oman and Taylor, added their own spin and due to their books being in continuous print, have been relied on by gamers to perpetuate the notion that Italy was a backwater. It hasn't helped that sympathetic and knowledgeable professional historians, like Mallett and Caferro, have lazily perpetuated the same falsehoods: A pair of Hawkwood's dismounted men-at-arms wielding a single heavy lance, for instance - were they fighting dragons? lol Looking at Villani's original passage in Italian, it turns out each men-at-arms wielded a lance two handed, like they were hunting boars. Rather than being novel, it was the common way armored men fought on foot - illustrated in fighting manuals in the 1400s.

Early pike fighting was derived from wielding cut down lances on foot and according to John McCormack's One Million Mercenaries, the Swiss adopted the pike from Italy: Italian militias had been wielding polearms of 10-15+ feet in massed formations - phalanxes instead of columns - for centuries, possibly an holdover from Byzantine times. I want to cover this in another thread, but for now I'll say this: pikes, wielded without a shield, started off as 10-12ft spears used dexterously, but by the end of the 1500s, had grown to 18ft+ and used in standardized formations. I forgot the battle, but in the late 1400s/early 1500s, the Venetians defeated Maximilian's Landsknechts by using longer pikes.     



Rather than the new Romans as mentioned by Machiavelli, the Swiss acted like the Helvetii of old: massed columns requiring little maneuvering vs the Condottieri emulating Julius Caesar. 

1403–1495 – War with Milan
1422, 30 June    Battle of Arbedo    Arbedo    Duchy of Milan defeats confederates
1449, 6 July    Battle of Castione    Castione    Milan defeats Uri and Leventina
1478, 28 December    Battle of Giornico    Giornico    Confederates defeat Milan
1487, 28 April    Battle of Crevola    Crevola d'Ossola    Milan defeats Confederates and Valais

I mentioned why the Swiss won Giornico in my review of Le Rotelle Milanesi/Die Mailänder Rundschilde (Giornico 1478)

The decline of communal militias and the move to professionals, didn't mean an abandonment of massed formations, just that condottieri warfare emphasized combined arms, light infantry, field fortifications and maneuver, in smaller groups over simple battles of attrition - anyone who was serious read their annotated copy of Vegetius. Charles the Bold's military reforms were based on condottieri warfare, especially as he employed many Italians, but he was an awful general, so everyone thinks the Swiss were better! lol

Not to toot my horn, but see my posts about Agnadello 1509. Troops from the Romagnole had a reputation, but they weren't the only ones who used pikes and in this battle they didn't take part, it was the Venetian militia who gave the French an hard time, until overwhelmed by numbers.   

The Italians favored an higher proportion of "shot" to pike, due to the former being of greater use on the offensive than the latter on the battlefield and on campaign. In the 1600s Century, the French shot, like the Italians in the 1500s, were used aggressively: shooting at close ranges, followed by charges wielding a sword or the musket butt as a club. In contrast, the pike was limited to the day of battle.     

Castagnaro 1387

Quote
These crucial historical events notwithstanding, Hawkwood alone looms large in the modern imagery of Castagnaro. English and American authors - with Italian ones following - bear most of the blame. To this day Italy's developments in warfare in the Middle Ages are perceived by many historians to be, to an extent, backwards when compared to the rest of Europe (whereas the opposite is actually true). p.6

BTW, there were no carroccios at Castagnaro: according to the author it's a misunderstanding and mistranslation of the then Italian. The carroccio had disappeared from battlefields almost a century before. I mention this, as the Perry's have one with kneeling soldiers in mid 15th Century armor!

For the French, I recommend David Potter's Renaissance France at War: Armies, Culture and Society, c.1480-1560.

For the Spanish, Osprey's The Spanish Tercios 1536-1704. I know some here have reacted negatively to it, especially as it barely covers the 17th Century, but it's a decent introduction for the early period and there's some info on pre-Tercio formations.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:20:08 AM by Condottiere »

Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2019, 02:38:01 AM »
Yeah, it's likely 'Italian' tactics would have caught up with most of Mainland Europe by 1495.

Still, these pictures/links are very inspirational so please keep them coming  :-* :-* :-*

Kind Regards
It's the other way round... ;)

It's Massimo Predonzani's blog, the author of Anghiari 29 giugno 1440, Caravaggio 1448 and the forthcoming Fornovo book, and he's written several articles for the defunct History & Uniforms - see Agnadello link. 

La cavalleria del 1400
La fanteria del 1400

His article on the Battle of San Romano 1432, is in History & Uniforms #7, and the Perry's based some of their Italians on the mid 1400s paintings.

La battaglia di Sommo o Cà del Secco presso Cremona 1427


Quote
i fanti di Agnolo della Pergola spingono i loro villici a riempire la fossa sotto il tiro dei veneziani

Loosely translates as Agnolo della Pergola's infantry driving villagers to fill in the Venetian ditch. >:D
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:52:28 AM by Condottiere »

Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2019, 03:06:22 AM »
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the gents with the large shields armed with spears were used a bit like Dopplesoldiers or Swiss Halberdiers. Obviously this is absolute speculation on  my part.

Worth looking into further though. Perhaps the odd few protecting the flanks of the Italian pike? Hmmmmmm......... ;) :)

Kind Regards
Those gents with various polearms covered the missile troops and in fluid condottieri warfare operated as assault infantry, along with sword and bucklermen. If you look at the 1448 Battle of Caravaggio, the Ambrosian Republic's forces under Francesco Sforza and the Venetians under his cousin Micheletto Attendolo, both sides operated from extensive entrenchments, reminiscent of those used in the 18th Century.

On an unrelated note, mentioned in Carol Kidwell's Marullus: Soldier Poet of the Renaissance, is the habit of landlocked Italian states deploying fleets of galleys via the extensive network of canals and rivers - Battle on the Po (1431).

Offline Condottiere

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Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2019, 03:58:08 AM »
La battaglia di Poggio Imperiale(1478)

Quote
Tav.4 – Combattimento di fanti

È il momento dell’attacco di sorpresa al campo fiorentino. Sulla sinistra i fanti di Firenze indossano calze-brache alla divisa sforzesca e scudi o rotelle con emblemi fiorentini. Sulla destra incalzano i fanti della lega papale con brache e rotelle con i colori rosso e giallo d’Aragona o bianco e nero della repubblica di Siena.