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Author Topic: To Fornovo and Back Again!  (Read 3643 times)

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2019, 06:12:45 AM »
Wow! Thanks for the info and the plates Condottiere  8) 8) 8)

A wee bit to take in there! ;) :)

Kind Regards
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 07:21:40 AM by Atheling »

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2019, 07:24:22 AM »
Condottiere,

Because of the 'missing' unknown number of heraldic devices present on both sides at Fornovo I will be bastardising some of the heraldry in the pics you have provided otherwise it would be impossible to cover all the nobility I would like.

If possible please keep the pictures coming as they are a fantastic resource.

Kind Regards

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2019, 05:40:28 AM »
A quick post on my Gewalthaufen Blog about a forthcoming book that has got me all hot and bothered.  ;D

There will be a full review soon.

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-italian-wars-volume-1-expedition-of.html

Offline Charlie_

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2019, 08:57:30 PM »
I'll be very interested in that book, and how it compares with the (usually) fantastic Osprey Campaign series.

I'm also curious how they portray the armies of the 1490s - closer to what we'd call the Wars of the Roses look in terms of arms/armour, or closer to the recognisable Italian Wars look of a decade or so later (Landsknechts, beards, big hats etc)?

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2019, 09:22:52 PM »
I'll be very interested in that book, and how it compares with the (usually) fantastic Osprey Campaign series.

I'm also curious how they portray the armies of the 1490s - closer to what we'd call the Wars of the Roses look in terms of arms/armour, or closer to the recognisable Italian Wars look of a decade or so later (Landsknechts, beards, big hats etc)?

It's very much a mix of both although even armours change in a relatively short space of time, say from Stoke Field 1487 to Flodden in 1513! The styles of jacks changed along with the length of the "skirt"! On, that's just in England too!  lol

Having said that, I really don't want to put anyone off and it's an absolutely fascinating journey foraging through the information that is available in English.


Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2019, 12:17:24 AM »
A quick post on my Gewalthaufen Blog about a forthcoming book that has got me all hot and bothered.  ;D

There will be a full review soon.

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-italian-wars-volume-1-expedition-of.html
The sequel will be out in July...

ATM, I'm waiting for some light reading: Courts and Courtly Arts in Renaissance Italy: Arts and Politics in the Early Modern Age.

I recommend acquiring or borrowing this collection of papers: Italy and the European Powers: The Impact of War, 1500-1530

Don't have this one yet, due to the price, but there's a Kindle version available on US Amazon for ~$47: The French Descent into Renaissance Italy, 1494–95: Antecedents and Effects - not a fan of proprietary software, though I've heard of software being able to convert Kindle/Nook books into PDFs.

Some useful stuff about artillery: The Munitions of the Republic: Production, commerce, and management of materiel in Renaissance Florence. Charles VIII's artillery was evolutionary, not revolutionary and the main difference between the ordnance of French and the Italian states, was the former's better organization.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 12:20:18 AM by Condottiere »

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2019, 06:22:14 AM »
The sequel will be out in July...

Yeah, I know ;) I'm in contact with the editor.

ATM, I'm waiting for some light reading: Courts and Courtly Arts in Renaissance Italy: Arts and Politics in the Early Modern Age.

Added to my list. I haven't looked yet but I hope I can get those papers below:

I recommend acquiring or borrowing this collection of papers: Italy and the European Powers: The Impact of War, 1500-1530

Don't have this one yet, due to the price, but there's a Kindle version available on US Amazon for ~$47: The French Descent into Renaissance Italy, 1494–95: Antecedents and Effects - not a fan of proprietary software, though I've heard of software being able to convert Kindle/Nook books into PDFs.

Some useful stuff about artillery: The Munitions of the Republic: Production, commerce, and management of materiel in Renaissance Florence. Charles VIII's artillery was evolutionary, not revolutionary and the main difference between the ordnance of French and the Italian states, was the former's better organization.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2019, 02:59:40 AM »
The link to Munitions of the Republic leads to a free PDF containing the author's essays...

A selection of "coffee table" and specialized books I'd recommend...

Italian Hilltowns by Norman F. Carver.

Full of gray scale photos and some color plates of traditional architecture from north to south and the islands. The last edition is from 1995 and it's the expanded version.

Florence the Golden Age, 1138-1737 by Gene A. Brucker

Siena: Constructing the Renaissance City by Fabrizio Nevola

Venice 697-1797: A City, A Republic, An Empire by Aluise Zorzi

Communication and Conflict: Italian Diplomacy in the Early Renaissance, 1350-1520 by Isabella Lazzarini

This is considered to be an update to Garrett Mattingly's Renaissance Diplomacy from the 1950s, though focused on Italy.

Italian Renaissance Diplomacy: A Sourcebook by Isabella Lazzarini and Monica Azzolini

The Italian Renaissance State Editors: Andrea Gamberini and Isabella Lazzarini.

The Politics of Exile in Renaissance Italy by Christine Shaw

Castles in Italy: The Medieval Life of Noble Families by Clemente Manenti

The Castles of Friuli: History and Civilization by Christoph Ulmer

City and Countryside in Late Medieval and Renaissance Italy: Essays Presented to Philip Jones
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 03:01:30 AM by Condottiere »

Online Sparrow

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2019, 05:01:50 AM »
Cheers for the book recs - really useful!
Put your trust in God and keep your powder dry!

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2019, 07:27:23 AM »
Cheers for the book recs - really useful!

Indeed  8).

Condottiere, I am very much appreciative of all your posts and other communications- it's a great help even though I sometimes find it hard to keep up  :)

My mind is on a lot of things at present but keep all the info, links and messages coming- it is of great help to me.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2019, 03:11:25 AM »
It's shame nothing comparable exists for Milan...

Christine Shaw's The Politics of Exile in Renaissance Italy focuses on the 15th Century, while Randolph Starn's Contrary Commonwealth: The Theme of Exile in Medieval and Renaissance Italy covers the earlier period, with everything after the 14th as almost an afterthought. I agree with Shaw's disagreement in the introduction with Starn's assertion that there was a decline in exiles with the increasing size of the Italian States. In fact, the number of exiles increased by the end of the 15th Century and it was the faction from the Neapolitan Kingdom, with Marullus among them, who convinced Charles VIII to march down the peninsula - in the case of the Greek Stradiot, it was the vain hope of an eventual crusade to liberate European territories.

If you looked at the drawing of the late 15th Century Italian armor with the 'Devil's Mask' (p.39 Italian Medieval Armies 1300-1500) and wanted more information , Lionello Giorgio Boccia wrote about it in Art, Arms and Armour: An International Anthology, VOL.1, 1979-1980. Unfortunately, only one volume was ever published, despite the optimistic claims in the introduction. It can be found used for $50 or less and has a few other period relevant articles.

I would also suggest Robert Held's previous series, again only a single volume was published: Arms and Armor Annual, Vol.1.







« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 03:20:43 AM by Condottiere »

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2019, 07:41:50 AM »
I cannot find a copy in the UK :(

Offline Condottiere

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2019, 03:26:58 AM »
A Depiction of an Italian Arming Doublet, c1435-45

Arming doublet of the 15th century

In the Benedictine monastery of Monte Oliveto Maggiorre there's a series of frescoes depicting the life of St Benedict begun by Luca Signorelli in 1498 and completed by Giovanni Antonio Bazzi aka Il Sodoma in1502 or 1506. There are few scenes depicting late 15th/early 16th Century soldiers, excluding classicized elements. In Osprey Fornovo 1495, pages 27 and 32 shows 2 images: one of Totila mounting his horse by Il Sodoma and the other by Luca Signorelli with light cavalry and infantry. Ellen W. Boswell Schiefers thesis Miracle at Monte Oliveto Renaissance Benedictine Ideals and Humanist Pictorial Ideals in Perspective contains color plates of the scenes. Comparisons with Carpaccio's St. Ursula Cycle and others, Totila is shown in late 15th/early 16th Century Italian armor. It's easy to dismiss the light cavalry and infantry as landsknechts, but comparisons with Carpaccio's depiction of hair styles, the upper and lower hose with extensive use of straight and wavy stripes, helmets and brigandine, indicates Italians or at least ones from Northern Italy and Tuscany.

An Overview of Men’s Clothing in Northern Italy c. 1420 - 1480



I don't think barbutas were as common as open faced sallets, but the mazzocchio, despite being depicted in the Paolo Uccello's the Battle of San Romano was never as ubiquitous as on figures. Going with Susan Downs Reed's From Chaperones to Chaplets: Aspects of Men’s Headdress, 1400-1519, various types of cloth circlets were in use throughout Europe in various periods, though the type referred to as a rondelle(mazzocchio?) fell out of fashion by the beginning of the 1460s, if I correctly understood the chart. Like in the former Eastern Roman Empire, various types of turbans or turban like headgear was popular in some periods - The Turban’d Turk in Renaissance Mantua: Francesco II Gonzaga’s Interest in Ottoman Fashion. Hats won't matter for helmeted figures, but would add some greenstuffed variety to the odd figure, so one doesn't just have to rely on these:

   

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2019, 06:47:06 AM »
Thanks again Condottiere!

I love the article and Gonzaga's interest in Ottoman dress and especially the 'turban'.

When it comes to the Fornovo game I will certainly be adding a vignette depicting him wearing such a turban. Perhaps as he's being armed for battle. It would make a great scene :)

Offline Atheling

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Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2019, 06:47:42 AM »
EDITED: Double post.