Gaming with unpainted models?

[Antonio J Carrasco]

I read in a debate in another forum a guy that defended the idea that any gaming, even with unpainted models or models which have received a mere basecoat but not detailing (not even an inkwash) was better than not gaming at all.

It is not the first time that I have heard/see people gaming with unpainted models. I remember walking into a wargaming shop where two lads were playing a game of Flames of War, both with unpainted, bare metal/plastic/resin models. None of them was concerned by the lack of painting in their figures. They couldn't care less. I tried to ask one of them, and he answered that he wouldn't bother because what if the next campaign book "nerfed" his units and made them superfluous, gaming-wise? Then the effort of painting those models would have been wasted, wouldn't it? 

It has always struck me as odd. I understand that painting hundred of models might be a chore. I am a slow painter, and it takes me ages to finish a unit, so imagine a playable army! In top of that, my wargaming interests span from the Bronze Age to the Ultramodern (albeit with stronger focus in 18th Century). You can imagine how chaotic can be. But the most beautiful part of this hobby, what actually appeals to me, is the sense of beauty and accomplishment that comes from having an interesting, challenging game using painted and based miniatures. Maybe my Spanish Militiamen are the crappiest units in a Napoleonic game, but they look nice in the battleline... at least as long as they survive the French onslaught!

If the goal is just gaming, why not use whatever you fancy? Why waste a dime in models? Use rice grains in a base of the appropriate size and just play with them.

To be totally open, I have tried rulesets using proxies, to learn mechanics and see if the game fit my expectations. Recently, I tried Twilight of the Sun King with my French and Spanish Napoleonics proxying as their late 17th Century counterparts. But I rather prefer to skip a game and wait until I have enough figures painted, than using unpainted models. What is the point of using miniatures if you don't bother with what makes them special?

I wonder what are the thoughts of the LAF community regarding this issue.

[Inkpaduta]

I would say it is up to the individual what they want out of the hobby.
I would disagree with you on "why not just use rice." Even if you use
unpainted figures you can still tell the different tanks ect apart and can make
out infantry vs cavalry ect. So I can see using unpainted figures verses something
else for that reason. To me, if they were enjoying their game and didn't care
if they were playing with unpainted figures then good for them. The idea, at least
for me, is to have fun. Would I play with unpainted figures? Probably not, but
if I really wanted to play and didn't have time to paint them...maybe.

[Westfalia Chris]

The sentiment resonates with me, even if I am not completely in agreement.

I would not play using unpainted figures myself, period, but I don't have that much of an issue if playing with others whom I know to paint the miniatures eventually but just didn't come around to painting them yet (similar to using basic or half-finished terrain, as it is a work-in-progress). It's also part of why I am not too fond of boardgames, even if I find the mechanics intriguing or with cross-applicability (e.g. Zombicide).

I'm more on the modelling/painting side of the hobby, though, and thus am not too bothered by waiting a bit longer to play if it means that all aspects of the game are finished.

Back in ye olden days, however, when I used to game 40k and did the occasional tournament, I found that there was a very strong correlation between unpainted minis and the likelihood of their user being a WAAC powergamer, making for most unpleasant games. Got so bad I got out of that part of the hobby and haven't really looked back, although I cannot bring myself to sell off my 40k armies just in case.

[Arrigo]

I am in agreement with Antonio, total agreement! But I also know plenty of people who are on the other side.

At the end of the day, it is all about having fun. But each of us has his or her fun. I have made clear in several occasions here and in other places that I prefer traditional map and counters games to miniatures as far game engines are concerned (and size and scope, there is something in leading the whole Soviet forces from Kiev to Warsaw, rather than just some companies of the Konarmyia). The redeeming quality of miniatures is the visual pageant. It is also the satisfaction of seeing your boys on the table.

I perfectly understand the feeling about the Spanish Militia, they can be the worst rated unit, but you like them for plenty of reasons. Uunpainted miniatures, with thrown together terrain (and square hills!) are not my thing. Eons ago at the Italian game convention Dadi.com there was a... FOW!... table with not even a cloth, and boxes for hills. It was basically awful. I remember Lorenzo Sartori (the event organizer and also mister Dadi and Piombo) being quite disappointed.

On the other hand there are plenty of people who do not care. I have once read that having to paint and build (or source from something beside the game box) your miniatures is unacceptable and it means it is a shoddy or incomplete product. There also people who care only about the list 'dominators' rather than anything else.  Or that dump an entire collection because the game is out of fashion... and so on.

but there are plenty of compromises. Some map games have counters that are extremely attractive, Heroes of Normandie for example (the graphic is impressive and certainly combine a great all in one approach with a good game system). Or Compass Games Company Scale System. The artist is very talented (and named Antonio too!):



Yes some people will say it is not appropriate, but I think it is much much better than playing with unpainted stuff, especially if you do not care about the miniatures themselves.


 

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Yes some people will say it is not appropriate, but I think it is much much better than playing with unpainted stuff, especially if you do not care about the miniatures themselves.

Exactly my feelings! I also prefer, when the goal is just gaming, using boardgames to get my fix. Lately, I got interested (again!) in the Yom Kippur War. I had the option of collecting two armies and gaming, maybe, in one year from now or getting a boardgame. In the end, I decided for the second option and bought Bar-Lev, published by Compass Games. Now I am playing in the Golan, trying to break through IDF's defences with my Syrians (and failing miserably, to the evil glee of my eldest who is enjoying making mincemeat of my poor tanks)

[FramFramson]

I really couldn't give a tinker's damn, because good minis are still good sculpturally, in their own right.

When I was a kid I'd play board games with unpainted figures which I still thought of as beautiful little statues, knowing nothing of minis painting. There's bad painting too - I know folks who think their painting is so poor that their minis suffer for it, and God knows prepainted minis have shown all of us how completely a perfectly good sculpt can be ruined by bad paintwork. In fact I'd go so far as to say I prefer unpainted minis to ones ruined by some poor local sod with absolutely zero artistic aptitude, yet who felt pressured to give it a go by the locals who turned up their noses at playing against an unpainted army.

We don't grouse when we see classical marble statues without the paint that we now know many of them once had so I honestly don't see the problem. Well I don't anyway. I'm sure there's some philhellene grognard out that that complains Athens really should be putting a lick of paint on the ruins of the Parthenon, but I digress... 

Now, a lazy tabletop with a plain table and flat cutout paper silhouette templates for terrain, THAT'll send me round the bend. At least get some bloody cheap foam hills, and MDF buildings or something. UGH!

[FramFramson]

Incidentally, there was a fellow on LAF who did up the infantry stands for his extremely small scale armies (1:600 or such) using neatly painted groups rice grains. Ended up working reasonably well, given the scale.

So even rice grains have their place. 

[Arrigo]

I decided for the second option and bought Bar-Lev

great choice! I have got that one too. I have also the 2nd, GDW edition (quite old, but a different and interesting game in its own right). Playing Syrians requires some training in the game.

I honestly don't see the problem.

As a former archaeologist I see the problem...  and it is even worse when you realize several of them have been paint stripped on purpose just to satisfy a certain vision of antiquity...    of course better that, than having them melted down to produce high grade wall glue...

But basically this is comparing apples and oranges.

[FramFramson]

There's a great many of the Spanish and French miniature-makers who've clearly been classically trained as traditional sculptors, and I really appreciate their work without paint coming into the equation at all. Beautiful figures full of movement and which are clearly well-designed to be looked at in the round.

Of course they look even better with a wonderful paintjob. But it's not necessary for me to love the figure.

[Gibby]

FramFramson makes an excellent point - an unpainted mini can, if well sculpted, be as nice to look upon (and game with) as those classical-yet-unpainted statues we love so much. A friend of mine once commended that he would never paint his Talisman miniatures because he wouldn't want to ruin them as they were, which I suppose were to him lovely unpainted statues.

Some time ago I made the decision that online arguments/debates aren't really worth the time, and usually neither side will change their opinion. Oddly enough, this has led to me spending way more time painting, which has decreased the likelihood of my needing to "try out" a game with the unpainted stuff. 

[dadlamassu]

For almost all our family and friends wargames we have used painted figures almost always from my collections.  Recently we played a game involving a novice friend whose own figures were unpainted.  I thought it important that he used his own figures as he had bought and assembled them.  It did not spoil the game and allowed him to get his first game with his own figures.  Having enjoyed the game he is now painting them for their next outing.

Would I do it again? Yes of course.

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Some time ago I made the decision that online arguments/debates aren't really worth the time, and usually neither side will change their opinion. Oddly enough, this has led to me spending way more time painting, which has decreased the likelihood of my needing to "try out" a game with the unpainted stuff. 

Actually, to me, it helps. Of course, I am not going all the sudden to have a change of heart because other people find gaming with unpainted minis a non-issue. Truth be told, I don't either. I just find odd that people reject half of the beauty of this hobby. I do game with painted figures, but if others don't, more power to them. That was not what I was trying to explain. What I really want to understand is why, voluntarily, renounce to what makes gaming with miniatures special. Is it the gaming part what has the appeal? The socializing? Where is the line between wargaming and modelling? Those are some of the questions that I am really interested to know other people's opinions. It is not about who is right and who is wrong, but about understanding how other gamers approach their hobby. I don't think that anybody need to change their opinions. Not everything needs to be a discussion; it can also be a conversation.

[Gibby]

Fair enough, Antonio. You make a good point, and I do appreciate conversation as much as you do (hence I love this forum). I suppose I see the word debate and think about what that means in society these days. It's easy to forget that not everywhere online is the same in that regard!

In the spirit of conversation then, I will admit to having played with unpainted figures on some occasions. The context being to test a ruleset out or to "get going" to keep the inspiration up during a project. I'm not a good case study because until this year I really flatlined on painting for years, thus ended up almost exclusively playing with the painted figures belonging to friends I was gaming with. Now I'm really back into painting, I can see why so many much prefer (as I ultimately do) to play with painted figures. dadlamassu's story mimicks how I will, going forward, find myself gaming with unpainted figures. Ones that aren't quite ready yet, but will be, despite the keenness to get playing!

[Plynkes]

I don't like playing with my own unpainted figures, in fact, I never do. But I have friends who are much more into the gaming than painting side of things, and if they want to put on a game with unpainted figures, I don't complain (well, I do, but only in a jokey way). If my friends want to come over and game, I'm happy for them to do so, whatever we are playing with. Often they have some new game and are desperate to try it out, I'm fine with that.

Whoever runs the game makes the rules.

[redzed]

Play with what you want, none of my friends use unpainted lead, if they did they wouldn't be my friends anymore.
Why bother using unpainted figures just use greenstuff in its packet and  say it's a squadron of cavalry yet to be made.