Gaming with unpainted models?

[Ogrob]

So I used to play Warmachine competetively, a game that gets very little attention on this forum. It's a game designed around the idea of competition, with regular rebalancing of rules and model statistics and that for a pretty long time had a very restrictive policy on what could be done to the official models if you wanted to field them in a competition. It is also a game where it is very common to see unpainted armies on the table. In response to redzed's questions above, people in the Warmachine/Horses community post battle reports with unpainted minis, they even live stream games with unpainted minis.

Why though? I think the comparison above to board games and the minis that come with those is apt. How many of you paint all your board gaming minis? Certainly not me, though if they are nice I will try to. Will definitely play the game even with unpainted minis and I won't be upset if a mate brings a game to game night without first painting the minis.

So yeah, I think that competitive games are more likely to see unpainted minis, games like FoW, Warmachine, tournament 40k or maybe even Infinity. If your enjoyment of the game comes from strategy or competition, maybe painting is tertiary or even optional. Not how I enjoy my wargaming, but I know plenty of people who think that way because I have shared a game community with them.

And if my regular opponents want to try out a list or faction that they haven't had time to finish, not a problem as long as I get my weekly game in.

[DoctorPete]

I've been hearing these arguments and counter-arguments for 40+ years.  Those who are primarily painters/collectors react in horror at the thought of unpainted minis.  Those who are gamers first, last and always seem not to care if they paint their armies because "the game's the thing."  There are, of course, many who fall between the two extremes who might lean one way or the other but seem less rooted in their opinions.  To me it's the venue that determines the matter.  I would say never, never ever, put on a game at a convention where the figures are left in their naked metal/resin/plastic but in the privacy of your own home you can do what you wish.  At clubs, I think there needs to be a consensus of the members as to what they allow/expect.  Urging members who own paintless minis to get more figs painted for the next game would appear to be a good way to go about getting progress to painted armies with only a little pushing.  For me, I'd rather play smaller games with painted minis that resort to naked lead.

[syrinx0]

Our gaming group has always tried to field painted armies.  Exception would be new members and kids. Some forces were mostly sprayed with additional colors but any effort at all was accepted.

[Elbows]

This is a fairly common discussion/argument/debate.

I do not play with unpainted models personally, for a number of reasons.  Having been in the wargaming hobby for 20+ years, I no longer have the inclination to "game at all costs", if the situation is sub-par.  It's not about elitism, it's about spending my time in the most quality fashion possible.  I was fortunate enough to cut my hobby teeth with a group older than me who instilled in me the enthusiasm and expectation of "do your part".

Tabletop wargaming is, without question, a cooperative experience.  When you show up to a table you're bringing your half of the show.  My goal is simple: never lower the level of the game.  That's bad gaming etiquette in my opinion.  I never want to show up and be the weak link in a tabletop game which looks good.  I believe it's a measure of respect for my opponent that I take interest in their passion and time spent on painting miniatures/terrain.

Do I expect my opponent to do the same?  No, but I reserve the right to not play a game if we start scraping the bottom of the barrel.  I extend every courtesy to new gamers, but for adults with expendable income and time/ability, I'd rather put together a cohesive good looking game.  If you're more interested in playing a game on an odd-shaped table with a table cloth, scraps of foam, and unpainted/unassembled miniatures - I'm likely to pass.

I don't get much enjoyment out of bargain-bin gaming.  Even if you're thrifty about gaming you can make a good looking table, and still paint miniatures.  When I see a really lazy table/army, etc. it just tells me that the person isn't terribly interested in the aesthetic element of the wargame - something I'm very interested in.

As a matter of respect I want to show up with a beautiful table, or fully painted miniatures (not a pro painter, but I'm not embarrassed by my stuff).  I want to bring my best to the table to help make the event/game/experience as excellent as I can for my opponent.  I expect a modicum of similar respect from my opponent.

In today's increasingly "supportive" culture, I find we continue to make endless excuses for people just not putting in effort, and I think we should do the opposite - encourage more activity/success/effort.  It's never wrong to expect more from people and help them get there.

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Elbows

Those are very interesting observations. I remember when I started with miniatures gaming. It was in 1989 when I joined a wargaming club where SYW in 15mm was all the rage! (imagine that!) We used Koenig Krieg ruleset. First few games I played with the armies of other club members, but it was expected from me to pull my weight too. I hadn't a lot of money back then (student, you know how it is) so I bought a small Hannoverian 4 battalion brigade, a couple of squadrons and an artillery battery from Freikorps 15. As soon as I had my first battalion painted, I used it in a game as part of a British brigade; then I continued painting and soon I had a little army. Nobody thought that waiting a few months to get the first units done was something unbecoming or that I was taking advantage of other's peoples work by using their armies in the meanwhile. It was a really nice experience (life then intervened and I lquit, but still it is one of my fondest memories)

I think that you are correct that the search for instant gratification plus, as Ogrob points, competitive gaming puts a premium in using unpainted miniatures and the barest, functional terrain. Aesthetics gives way to functionality. And it is understandable. Why a young lad would be willing to sink hundreds of euros and hours of work to be able to field a few dozen of units in a table if he can get inmediate satisfaction playing online with his buddies to, say, Company of Heroes? Maybe emphazising the added values of miniatures gaming (visual appealing; satisfaction of working with your hands; ecc) is the way for "analogic" wargaming to co-exist with its digital brethren. 

[sukhe_bator]

I echo DoctorPete's comments. As a general rule I would never field unpainted minis at a club or convention, or use any in a game. To me they will always be 'naked' and lacking in character regardless of how well they are sculpted. I know modellers who say that the minis take on a persona once you invest time in painting them. Lacking a particular deadline or incentive, I tinker at my hobby. In the privacy of my own home (not belonging to a club) I consequently have a wide variety of armies and periods with unpainted minis in all of them. The greatest creative stimulus for me was collaborating in a fantasy demo game at Excel for Salute 2010. It gave me a much needed nudge to finish off units that would otherwise remain nekked, and complete terrain projects that had stalled. I tend to work best in bursts, with a goal in mind, but hey, that's just me.

[Tactalvanic]

Seeing this come around again made me momentarily feel old.

But I stopped and read through the usual suggestions and points of view and the more detailed evaluations too, some introduced new thoughts actually.

Happily I can at least take something from this iteration of the subject, the thought of gaming with the miniatures to keep up interest, while working through them, its not something i had given much thought to previously.

Anything that helps keep interest in the slog towards completion.

Other than that, its a hobby, enjoy it.

[Jemima Fawr]

I like to invite people who don't paint their models round for dinner and give them uncooked raw ingredients...

[Malebolgia]

I like to invite people who don't paint their models round for dinner and give them uncooked raw ingredients...

Why?
I just don't understand some people's sentiments to gaming with unpainted miniatures. In the end we're all just a bunch of nerds who like to play silly games with small pieces of metal or plastic, odd dice and tape measures, while making it look grandiose in our heads. Is it that bad if people enjoy playing the games too with unpainted miniatures? Or is that where the term 'nerdrage' originated from ?
I used to play mainly with unpainted miniatures as I just was very slow and set very high standards to my work (not the best combination to fill up your glass cabinet...). But did it detract from my gaming experience? Not at all. I have tons of fantastic memories of epic games that featured many unpainted miniatures.

By now I have sped up my painting speed and try to paint as much as possible because of course it looks cooler with painted miniatures. But that is what I want with -my- miniatures. I don't really care what my friends do. Sure it's cool if they paint their stuff, but if they don't I don't care at all. It's their miniatures, their time, their money. And it sure won't detract from the fun of our weekly games if stuff's unpainted.

[carlos marighela]

Having seen my fair share of painted miniatures that look infinitely worse than they started out as raw metal, I say your toys, your table.

It’s a visual and tactile hobby but everyone has their own parameters for enjoying it and aesthetics differ. To each their own and frankly I see no point in being censorious about what some other bugger dies in their spare room/ basement/ attic or garage.

[Arrigo]

Play with what you want, none of my friends use unpainted lead, if they did they wouldn't be my friends anymore.
Why bother using unpainted figures just use greenstuff in its packet and  say it's a squadron of cavalry yet to be made.

That should the be our miniature wargaming motto...    but then some people will start using packets of greenstuff. 

The comments on Warmachine is worth reading. Yes it is a competitive game and one that emphasized stats over miniatures. Once I saw a 'demo' of it organized by the then Italian official distributor (before Salvaderi took over...). I knew the chaps involved (I was working part time with their historical side of the business). The demo consisted in... lining up the people on chairs then the chap in charge started to read from the rulebook, that at a convention. Years later, when I ran my first seminar I had image of that...

On the other hand, once in the same general time period, I was in the shop and a lady who was doing professional miniature painting took some warmachine miniatures for a client. Well, I did not like the genre, but sculpting was good, and painting was exceptional. Okay the game was based on stats, but some people took a lot of time to craft decent miniatures, that looked much better painted (even a bad paintjob is better than no painting at all).  I realized I cannot really get on with people who think gameplay is the thing above graphics/scenics/immersion. I had the same problem with some of the people whom played DBx with me at the times. What was the point of playing with wrong miniatures, paper rectangels and so on, especialyl because games like GMT's SPQR were doing the same, much better, at lesser cost, and better graphic.

I reached the conclusion that form me that was not miniature gaming at all, so I prefer to not play rather than playing something I am not interested into. Of course that also means that I always try to have ready paired forces, just in case troops are needed. I do not care what people does in their hidden basements, but frankly it is not something related to what I intend as miniature wargaming.


At the end to each his or her own, but do not expect me to subscribe to the better awful than no game group. But on the other hand I am also someone who is growing tired by the sentiments expressed by Malebolgia. No personal attack, it is just that those blanket 'at the end we are all... <add the rest of the sentence> statements are stale.  (again this is a broader statement, just Malebologia expressed something I have seen and disliked in other places).

Years ago, a decade maybe... on the miniature wargaming's evil pit of doom on the web... there was a chap who had a long post about what waterloo game was better, one with beautifully painted miniatures, realistic terrain, and where the French won the day, Blucher never arrived on time and so on... or one with not even a cloth over the table, boxy hills, unpainted miniatures but where the whole battle was a perfect recreation of history in every single move... I think the chap missed the whole boat, either on miniatures, and wargames.  Or listening to Professor Philip Sabin on wargame graphics... and being forced to play is raw games... RN Commander comment on a game I was mastering: certainly some more care should have been taken in differentiating German from British counters. That was bargain bin gaming at its worst. Phil calls it cheap and cheerful, I call it cheap and awful.


Funnily enough, barring a bit of sarcasm, I found the I do not game with unpainted miniatures brigade much more forthcoming and accommodating than the evil ragtag fanatical  opposition... plus it is well known that dice dislike unpainted miniatures 

[Duncan McDane]

Having seen my fair share of painted miniatures that look infinitely worse than they started out as raw metal, I say your toys, your table.

This. And added to that, 3 base colours on the model to make it tourney-legal isn't painted in my book
And besides, I feel everybody should field what he or she fancies, as long as it's clear what your model represents.

[Duncan McDane]

plus it is well known that dice dislike unpainted miniatures 

So true. Ditto for borrowed models or "count-as" proxies.
But I'd rather play with unpainted models than hastily dipped or very badly painted things, guess I'm too much the miniature addict for that.

[Dr. Zombie]

Whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Playing with unpainted minis is not for me. But to be honest. These days gaming is really a rare byproduct of my "buying miniatures and painting a percentage thereof" hobby...

I have done my fair share of gaming with unpainted miniatures and even with squares of cardboard with "Ork Boarboyz" written on it. But as one gets older ones tastes matures and now I would not get the same(read: any) enjoyment out of that type of game.

[Jemima Fawr]

Why?
I just don't understand some people's sentiments to gaming with unpainted miniatures.