Warlord Games Black Seas

[grant]

“Models are hard to find”

Langton, GHQ... full lines already out there.

The fluff piece made me like the concept significantly less - like GW telling me their dice are so innovative. 

[Grumpy Gnome]

Fair point Grant, although Langton and GHQ are 1/1200 aren‘t they?

The Black Seas ratlines bother me. They look plasticky and cheap on otherwise decent miniatures. But brass ratlines to scale from Meridian would increase the per model cost quite a bit.

https://navymodelsandbooks.co.uk/shop/meridian-1700-scale-trafalgar-ships/components-list/mtc03-etched-brass-ratlines-set-for-1st-3rd-rates/

[pauld]

I have pre-ordered the base set.

Looks fun, pretty too.  I can see further "investment" ahead.

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Has anyone have a look at the actual rules? The videos are OK, but it is not clear what is the scale of engagements the ruleset manages best. To be more precise, does anyone know how many ships per side would be deployed in a typical game? By the look of it, it seems that it is intended for squadron-sized fleets, i.e. 3 to 5 ships per side, but not sure if that is the case, i.e. how the game deals with command of squadrons or if it is just like a dogfight but with sailing ships instead of planes and each ship acts on her own.

[Grumpy Gnome]

From what it looks like in the online media so far I would say focused on the squadron sized games you suggest, although there is I believe a Trafalgar scenario in the advanced rules. In the seminar video I think the author mentioned Trafalgar would need a pretty big table, like twice what you normally see gamers use.

Edit: And I seem to recall in the rulebook look from Wargames Illustrated I saw an advanced rule for sailing in line which would suggest some rule to encourage formation sailing rather than just dogfighting.

[DeRuyter]

After reviewing the media on Black Seas I am taking a cautious approach to the rules. Clearly this is following the Warlord model of fast play beer and pretzel style systems. The author points out that he had to simplify the sailing mechanics but some detail was added into the advanced rules. Also I read elsewhere that David Manley was asked for input by WL - that is a good sign. As a sailor and age of sail rules collector I am interested but want some "crunch" in my AoS games. I am interested in actions with smaller ships such as the lake battles in the War of 1812 as well. Many rules overlook this aspect of age of sail and go for fleet actions with ships of the line, etc.


 Rick W. if you are looking for pirates which is really 17th century for the most part I would recommend Oak & Iron. I invested in the KS.  Also what Firelock did is post actual game play videos explaining the mechanics so you can make an informed decision on the game system. I wish WL would have done this for Black Seas.

Rick W. - curious where did Sails of Glory fail for you? 

[Grumpy Gnome]

To be fair I never gave the Sails of Glory rules much of a chance after I saw the price and look of the minis. Perhaps it is a cracking game.

I understand the concern about Warlord Games streamlined games. Bolt Action did not click with me, which put me off trying Gates of Antares.

My fondness for 17th century sail is more about galleons than pirates, but I will admit some nostalgia for Pirates of the Burning Sea. If I was still playing computer games instead of focusing on table top I would likely be heavily into Naval Action.

[DeRuyter]

To be fair I never gave the Sails of Glory rules much of a chance after I saw the price and look of the minis. Perhaps it is a cracking game.

I understand the concern about Warlord Games streamlined games. Bolt Action did not click with me, which put me off trying Gates of Antares.

My fondness for 17th century sail is more about galleons than pirates, but I will admit some nostalgia for Pirates of the Burning Sea. If I was still playing computer games instead of focusing on table top I would likely be heavily into Naval Action.

Ironically I am heavily into Naval Action and that has turned my focus from TT to PC games! Although these days my time in NA has declined. You may like the upcoming Ultimate Admiral Age of Sail it is a wargame rather than a MMO like NA.

You can certainly do galleons and 17th fleet actions with Oak & Iron - they are coming out with 17th century ships of the line as part of the KS. The limitation with Sails of Glory is that it is geared to one ship per player maybe two for an experienced player and played as written it has a boardgamey feel. Personally I don't use all the chit and cards, rather we use a laminated record sheet to mark damage. It also does not cater to the small ships. I do agree that the Sails of Glory minis need some enhancement - paint the spars, give it a wash and some people do the rigging. What I like about the Black Seas minis is that WL gives you everything in the box to properly build a nice model including the rigging. I have looked into the paper ships from War Artisan but the modelling aspect is a bit fiddily for my tastes.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Yeah Oak and Iron has some appeal, I just wish the ship models were a bit tastier.

I am curious to see if Black Seas goes into other periods over time as the designer mentioned... I mean he did talk about a kraken as well so he may have been taking the piss.

[olicana]

Trafalgar in 1:700! I suspect you would have to play it on the floor rather than on a table. I did on a 12 x 6 several years ago but, I was using 1:2400 ships. Even then, things did seem rather cramped, and the light breeze at Trafalgar still hustles things along. Here's a pic of the thing set up, with each ship represented. The ship out on its own, centre right, is Africa.



They are such little ships compared to 1:700. For scale, the dice in the shot below are 6 mm.



This shot is taken from the rear of the Allied line and shows the spacing of the English fleet a little better. If I remember correctly, ground scale is 1:4800 - half that of the ships.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Yeah, fair point... that is a lot of sea to cover.

Another video from Warlord, near they end they talk about smaller classes of ships in the future.

[DeRuyter]

Interesting video. I wish they would put out a play through like Firelock did. There is always a concern that the stat range may be too narrow and small unrated ships will be an afterthought. Some of the photos included gunboat models which made me hopeful that they started the stat range small and worked up. I imagine the gunboat rules are abstracted and represent a small number of boats or flotilla. Does not bode well for representing lake schooners with a single pivot mount otherwise.

I did notice a photo in the old GW "Trafalgar" rules of Gabrio playing when he was at GW. Those rules were geared towards larger ships and battles. Having said that one could always buy the ships and use other rules! I think the scale is suited for smaller ships.

[Grumpy Gnome]

I agree that a playthrough video is something they should do. And I agree that the minis can be useful for other games. Warlord does seem to be a mini company first and game company second.

[von Lucky]

Rick W. totally agree on both points.

Are the sail and/r wake files going to be available online for those buying the WI? After thinking I'll be able to steer clear of this and get my 1/1200 finished I find out some friends have already ordered the "big starter boxes" 

Looks like there will be a small privateer frigate joining the fun.

[DeRuyter]

As an age of sail grognard, I have been waiting for play through videos on YT at a minimum before critiquing. Now there are several out including one with a Warloard employee and another by On Table Top. Suffice it to say that some of what I have seen is troubling for those looking for granularity in combat. For those gamers who don't know the difference between a motor torpedo boat and a frigate the basic rules are certainly sufficient for a fun club game. This is certainly the intent as noted by the designer who is an age of sail aficionado, which makes me hopeful for the advanced rules. To a certain extent you won't completely turn a beer and pretzels game into a sim with just 4 pages of advanced rules though.

Several examples that trouble me. One playthrough (On Table Top) video showed that brigs have 2 heavy  cannon dice which do 2 points of dmg per hit. But there is nothing that distinguished those guns from the heavy cannon on the Santisima Trinidad. The Santisima carried a battery of 36 lb guns and a battery of 24 lb guns, plus a battery of 12 lb guns on the upper deck. Most small unrated brigs carried 6 lb guns unless rearmed with carronades. Put it another way it made a difference that USS Constitution was armed with 24 lb long guns opposing frigates with the standard 18 lb batteries.

Another is in the basic rules running with the wind is the fastest point of sail, which is incorrect. Apparently the sailing and wind rules are a bit different with the addition of the advanced rules. Also the attacker in boarding combat gets a +1 to the dice? Like to know the rational for that one. And grappling can occur when the ships are 3 inches apart!?!

Anyway I do like the fact that everything, except paint, you need is in the box including rigging. Since the models are larger I was hoping to use them for lake battles however I am not sure the rules have sufficient granularity on the low end of the stats for that, despite that they do have gunboat models.