The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?

[Atheling]

As the title of this post suggests I'm looking for miniatures to represent Landsknechts in 1499 at Dornach.

I'm really looking for early evidence of any differences in attire between the two main adversaries.

I'm currently plan to be using the Perry range for my Swiss.

So, what about the Landsknechts? About the only miniatures I've found that are not Perry's is The Assault Group (early) Landsknecht miniatures of which some are featured below:









Are these miniatures are a fair representation of the Landsknecht in 1499? Or, should I be using the Perry ranges with a few conversions?

I'm not at all sure that given the geographical region from which the early Landsknechts were raised at an early date, namely from town local to der Schwyz that there would have been that much of a difference in appearance.

Basically, it's a question that I'm not really qualified to answer so I was wondering if anyone had any advice or opinions on the matter?

I suppose one could also ask if the Perry EA range is a good representation of the Swiss at this point too?

[Mad Doc Morris]

Basically, it's a question that I'm not really qualified to answer so I was wondering if anyone had any advice or opinions on the matter?

I'd say, if based on pictorial evidence, your guess is as good as anyone's. Take another look at the pieces posted in your other thread on the topic. If a miniature meets that appearance, it's most probably good to go. "National fashion" is a can of worms really. Depending on the author's (or artist's) agenda differences were overemphasised or levelled; the same goes for traditionalist fashion vs 'bloated' clothing, once proper and new, once in rags and so on.
That said, Italy's cultural influence on northern Alpine Europe was strong even before 1494. So 'slashed clothes' would have been quite common in 1499, especially in the Confederacy with its strong ties to the South.

For proper 'period' conversions I would look no further than Stuart's blog. But you already knew that one.

[Atheling]

I'd say, if based on pictorial evidence, your guess is as good as anyone's. Take another look at the pieces posted in your other thread on the topic. If a miniature meets that appearance, it's most probably good to go. "National fashion" is a can of worms really. Depending on the author's (or artist's) agenda differences were overemphasised or levelled; the same goes for traditionalist fashion vs 'bloated' clothing, once proper and new, once in rags and so on.
That said, Italy's cultural influence on northern Alpine Europe was strong even before 1494. So 'slashed clothes' would have been quite common in 1499, especially in the Confederacy with its strong ties to the South.

Yeah, agreed. 1499 is a date in which it's difficult to find visual references in regard to the topic. It's interesting to note that The Assault Group's Italian mini's for the same "period" (argh!) lack said slashes:





It's beginning to drive me up the wall 

For proper 'period' conversions I would look no further than Stuart's blog. But you already knew that one.

Yeah, I'm very aware of Stuart's beautifully crafted blog  .  Though 1499 might be a little early for the fashions featured()

[Mad Doc Morris]

There are different variants and degrees of 'slashed clothing'. The exuberant style is best documented for professional soldiers from the Holy Roman Empire (at that point including Switzerland). Yet that impression could also be due to a lack of pictorial evidence for military fashion in Italy (and France) before the second or third decade of the 16th century. Indeed, these later depictions show a somewhat toned down fashion.

However, some of these TAG "Italians" look more like 15th century soldiers. Let's not forget that most wargames figures are not based on genuine research but modelled on secondary illustrations or are just fun projects (like the Perrys' totally anachronistic carroccio…).
That's perfectly fine since wargamers aren't reenactors. (And even they have to compromise, always.) So I'd say, the two woodcuts/ engravings you've got so far are a very solid base. Maybe they were printed a couple of years after the event, but both show the soldiers involved in great detail. For contemporaries this depiction was plausible. So, if you want to focus on this conflict, that's your best bet.

Stuart goes to great lengths to get the appearance as seen in his sources right. That's why I mentioned him. But like you said, aspirations to not only find a good representation of the 'period' but accurately depict participants of a certain battle will only drive you up the wall.

[Oli]

I looked at a load of images of Landsknecht at the very start of 1500 a while back and the TAG figures are the closest I have found to Landsknecht for 1499, have a look at some of the contemporary images: http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2017/03/wip-early-landsknechts.html

[tom_aargau]

They seem to look very similar. Here two pictures, one from 1513 and one from 1515:

[bluechi]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Schwaben-Schweizerkrieg.jpg


The battle of Frastanz and Calven looks more interesting

[Condottiere]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Schwaben-Schweizerkrieg.jpg


The battle of Frastanz and Calven looks more interesting

Hale's Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance covers parts of this woodcut in detail - I highly recommend this book.

[bluechi]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Freydal_Repro1882_Tafel_240.jpg/519px-Freydal_Repro1882_Tafel_240.jpg

Heinrich von Fürstenberg

This conflict is one of my most historical Interests....i think it was an suprise attack. The swabish force know that the Swiss are there and ignore it. They thougt they waiting for more and it was late in the day.Thats what i found in old Manuskripts. The attack starts 4pm.

[Atheling]

There are different variants and degrees of 'slashed clothing'. The exuberant style is best documented for professional soldiers from the Holy Roman Empire (at that point including Switzerland). Yet that impression could also be due to a lack of pictorial evidence for military fashion in Italy (and France) before the second or third decade of the 16th century. Indeed, these later depictions show a somewhat toned down fashion.

However, some of these TAG "Italians" look more like 15th century soldiers. Let's not forget that most wargames figures are not based on genuine research but modelled on secondary illustrations or are just fun projects (like the Perrys' totally anachronistic carroccio…).
That's perfectly fine since wargamers aren't reenactors. (And even they have to compromise, always.) So I'd say, the two woodcuts/ engravings you've got so far are a very solid base. Maybe they were printed a couple of years after the event, but both show the soldiers involved in great detail. For contemporaries this depiction was plausible. So, if you want to focus on this conflict, that's your best bet.

thanks for that Mad Doc Morris  . I'm interested to hear your comments about the TAG range looking like 15thC warriors. I know it's a guestimate, but what sort of date would be a good interclation for their late use?

Stuart goes to great lengths to get the appearance as seen in his sources right. That's why I mentioned him. But like you said, aspirations to not only find a good representation of the 'period' but accurately depict participants of a certain battle will only drive you up the wall.

Yep, I'm currently being driven up the wall at a measured pace. Soon to accelerate no doubt  .

Thanks for your help 

[bluechi]

Maybe 1510/1515 the Fashion changes fast at that time .

[Condottiere]

Yeah, agreed. 1499 is a date in which it's difficult to find visual references in regard to the topic. It's interesting to note that The Assault Group's Italian mini's for the same "period" (argh!) lack said slashes:





It's beginning to drive me up the wall 

Yeah, I'm very aware of Stuart's beautifully crafted blog  .  Though 1499 might be a little early for the fashions featured()

I've had Stuart's blog bookmarked for ages and based on mention, I purchased The King's Servants: Men's Dress at the Accession of Henry VIII by Caroline Johnson from Etsy, but the problem is that his focus is on England and France, not Italy. In the aforementioned book, I noticed that some of the coats, jackets and design of doublet were worn by Italians at least a generation before.

BTW, the cut of the coat on the cover looks similar to this:



Tunics with baggier shoulders with narrow/tight sleeves/cuffs were called Persian style and a modified version survived till the end of the East Roman Empire.

I wanted to cover Italian fashion in the other thread, so suffice to say the unarmored figures are accurate for the late 15th/early 16th Century, more so than the Perry ones. The problem is that they're generic Italian, not based on regional styles. At this point, slashing was probably not as popular as with the Northerners, specifically the Venetians: they went overboard to circumvent sumptuary laws, like in Carpaccio's paintings.

Frescoes in Castello Challant, Issogne (Valle d'Aosta) (1489-1502)         



The Tempest (Giorgione)



Tiziano Vecellio aka Titian Idyll(1505-08)

[Condottiere]

I looked at a load of images of Landsknecht at the very start of 1500 a while back and the TAG figures are the closest I have found to Landsknecht for 1499, have a look at some of the contemporary images: http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2017/03/wip-early-landsknechts.html

I'd say they're perfect, but the slashing has been toned down, so as to differentiate with the later era Landsknechts. The figures are based off of the Dolnstein sketches in Richards' Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560, also on your blog, and if you notice they lack some of the bagginess, pleats and slashing shown in the sketches. Also they lack katzbalger...



From page 44 of Hale's Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance: Made for Charles the Bold - Contested Landing of Alexander the Great in Scythia (c.1480)

[Oli]

Condottiere I think TAG got it right with the Katzbalgers. If you look at the images from that post not a single Landsknecht is carrying one. They all have swords with S shaped guards but not the classic Katzbalger. I would guess the style of these S shaped guards quickly changed to the more figure of 8 style guard within a few years.
In 1500 the style seems to look like this:



I agree that the TAG figures do lack slashing, that being said many of the images from the turn of the century do show Landsknecht in more pedestrian doublet and hose. The dagged breeches seemed popular and TAG picked up on that.

They did miss out on the "octopus" sleeves, it would of been great to see some of them modelled:

[Griefbringer]

Those octopus sleeves look like they might be a bit challenging as regards sculpting and casting - to survive handling they would probably need to be sculpted as a quite tight bundle partially touching legs for support.