*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 18, 2019, 04:59:20 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent

Author Topic: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?  (Read 1173 times)

Offline Duncan Head

  • student
  • Posts: 17
Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2019, 02:42:56 PM »
Paul Dolnstein's drawings of landsknechte fighting Swedes date from 1501-02, so the landsknechts are probably about right for the Swabian War - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Paul_Dolnstein for instance.
 
Judging from discussion of the differences at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=209421 the main difference seems to be katzbalger vs schweizerdolch.

Offline Atheling

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • galactic brain
  • *
  • Posts: 6119
    • Just Add Water high Quality Mini Painting
Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2019, 07:02:12 PM »
Judging from discussion of the differences at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=209421 the main difference seems to be katzbalger vs schweizerdolch.

Which is fantastic that TAG have got the katzbalger nailed but it does leave me with a problem if I'm going to go with Swiss that are contemporaneous with the TAG Landskechts.

I know one can't have everything  :). Still, it would be have been very nice!!

Just Add Water II Blog (Painting etc):
http://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.co.uk/
La Journee Blog (Hundred Years War):
http://lajourney-bedford.blogspot.co.uk/
Gewalthaufen Blog (Late 15th Century Blog):
http://gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk/

Offline Mad Doc Morris

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • mastermind
  • *
  • Posts: 1678
  • Olympus speaketh?
Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2019, 06:10:56 PM »
Which is fantastic that TAG have got the katzbalger nailed but it does leave me with a problem if I'm going to go with Swiss that are contemporaneous with the TAG Landskechts.

Don't know if Artizan matches in scale. But if so, they have some Swiss in early-ish, toned down attire: LINK
On the other hand, if it really bothers you, sidearms are easily exchanged (or simply filed down). Have a look at the accessoire packs by Front Rank or the assorted (convertable) swords which come in the Perrys' mercenaries box set.
I guess a major issue in comparison might be the correct use of Swiss and Burgundian crosses. ;)

Offline Atheling

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • galactic brain
  • *
  • Posts: 6119
    • Just Add Water high Quality Mini Painting
Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2019, 07:12:51 AM »
Don't know if Artizan matches in scale. But if so, they have some Swiss in early-ish, toned down attire: LINK
On the other hand, if it really bothers you, sidearms are easily exchanged (or simply filed down). Have a look at the accessoire packs by Front Rank or the assorted (convertable) swords which come in the Perrys' mercenaries box set.
I guess a major issue in comparison might be the correct use of Swiss and Burgundian crosses. ;)

I'd already looked at the Artizan range for Swiss but it's a very small range with very little variation. I remember getting quite excited when they had just finished their Landsknechts and moved onto the Swiss as I was expecting a range of a similar size. Unfortunately that was not to be.

It *might* be possible to mix the Artizan Swiss with the TAG stuff but I'd have to compare both in detail before making my mind up. I'll probably pick up a pack of Artizan Swiss and see what's what.

Agreed re: the FR weapons packs but at £3.25 per pack you don't get much in the way of viable convertible material :(


Can you think of anyone else who does 28mm weapons packs that might be suitable? I'm thinking Essex perhaps?

Offline Condottiere

  • mad scientist
  • Posts: 565
Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2019, 04:12:43 AM »
Condottiere I think TAG got it right with the Katzbalgers. If you look at the images from that post not a single Landsknecht is carrying one. They all have swords with S shaped guards but not the classic Katzbalger. I would guess the style of these S shaped guards quickly changed to the more figure of 8 style guard within a few years.
In 1500 the style seems to look like this:



I agree that the TAG figures do lack slashing, that being said many of the images from the turn of the century do show Landsknecht in more pedestrian doublet and hose. The dagged breeches seemed popular and TAG picked up on that.

They did miss out on the "octopus" sleeves, it would of been great to see some of them modelled:







Swords with vertical and horizontal s-shaped guards go back as early as the 1300s (HEMA/BOTN: S hilt guards in the 15th century), but are more than likely Katzbalgers when associated with Landsknechts. It's an s-shaped or figure of eight style guard, not one evolving into the other, though . Unlike the Baselard or Falchion, the Katzbalger wasn't an actual sword, but more than likely a name associated with function - http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=218958#218958 from Katzbalgers.... Looking for info - and this might explain why there are so few surviving genuine examples.

A selection from the images in the MyArmoury thread:



Can't say if this is genuine: Medieval SWORD KATZBALGER of Mercenary Landsquenet ca 1520 ties ORIGINAL GRIP



Based on what I've presented above, I'd say:

Image 1 - definitely a Katzbalger
Image 2 - either a longsword with a Katzbalger hilt or an exaggeratedly sized Katzbalger. The latter more than likely, as the halberd looks way too big.
Image 3 - can't see the guards.
Image 4 - can't tell in that pic, but Dolnsteins sketchbook is filled with longswords and Katzbalger, depending on the way the sword is worn: more than likely a Katzbalger if worn gunslinger style with part of the hilt resting on the crotch - a double entendre according to Skjelver.

The "octopus" sleeves would be difficult to replicate on figures, so I'd suggest adding strips with lead foil or plasticard. The two part hose, a North Italian or Venetian influence, is accurate, but TAG didn't go far enough.   
 


Offline Condottiere

  • mad scientist
  • Posts: 565
Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2019, 04:35:53 AM »
Which is fantastic that TAG have got the katzbalger nailed but it does leave me with a problem if I'm going to go with Swiss that are contemporaneous with the TAG Landskechts.

I know one can't have everything  :). Still, it would be have been very nice!!
One thing not covered in that thread is the Schweizerdegen. In addition to longswords, Landsknechts and Reisläufer could also wield various types of messer. Probably derived from messers, Schweizersäbel would've been common, though the term originated in the early 20th century. 

French Entry into Naples 1495:



Based on the "turbans" and plumage, I'd say the foot in the upper right are Swiss. With some slight alteration, you could use the Early TAG Landsknechts as Reisläufer.