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Author Topic: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited  (Read 15192 times)

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2020, 06:17:00 AM »
Following this development with great interest. So much potential!
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Offline Emir of Askaristan

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2020, 07:34:50 AM »
There is an illustration somewhere, I think Peter Connolly - Greece and Rome at War possibly an Osprey on the Persians which shows a file of Persian archers with a sparabara at the front and a leader at the rear of the file.

The former has the large reed "pavis" spara, spear and hand weapon.
Archers with bow, bowcase and hand weapon, possibly also a pelta or small round shield.
Leader with bow (in case), spear and if memory serves correctly a whip!

Ignoring the latter, I'd base these guys up in mixed units spear to the front and bows at the rear. I'd have the leader off set to the back left or right (especially for unit bases like Impetus). If you're worried that later Persian units weren't sparabara type formations with hoplite type spears replacing the spara then it would be two ranks of those per base and a separate base of archers. Having units of just archers would be useful for sets with big units too.

If you want them meleeing  then a mix of swords, axes, spears etc all together wouldn't be uncorrect. It's down to your preference and choice of rules at the end of the day.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2020, 08:21:23 AM »
One feel compelled to say, at last a Persian range full of animation and dynamism.

 :-* :-* :-*

Offline wmyers

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2020, 09:22:15 PM »
There is a Peter Connolly illustration that may have been an inspiration for the kneeling archer:

https://www.akg-images.co.uk/archive/-2UMDHUVYK7JZ.html

Offline Easy E

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2020, 05:12:37 PM »
There is an illustration somewhere, I think Peter Connolly - Greece and Rome at War possibly an Osprey on the Persians which shows a file of Persian archers with a sparabara at the front and a leader at the rear of the file.

The former has the large reed "pavis" spara, spear and hand weapon.
Archers with bow, bowcase and hand weapon, possibly also a pelta or small round shield.
Leader with bow (in case), spear and if memory serves correctly a whip!

Ignoring the latter, I'd base these guys up in mixed units spear to the front and bows at the rear. I'd have the leader off set to the back left or right (especially for unit bases like Impetus). If you're worried that later Persian units weren't sparabara type formations with hoplite type spears replacing the spara then it would be two ranks of those per base and a separate base of archers. Having units of just archers would be useful for sets with big units too.

If you want them meleeing  then a mix of swords, axes, spears etc all together wouldn't be uncorrect. It's down to your preference and choice of rules at the end of the day.

That was my understanding of how a Persian archer unit worked as well.  They were mixed units with the spearmen and a large shield up front, backed by several archers.  For some reason a Spara armed trooper in front of a file of 9 archers comes to mind, but I would need to go back and find my source.... John Warry and Warfare in the Ancient World maybe?

I think this kit could easily create that look. 
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Offline Atheling

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2020, 07:39:26 PM »
That was my understanding of how a Persian archer unit worked as well.  They were mixed units with the spearmen and a large shield up front, backed by several archers.  For some reason a Spara armed trooper in front of a file of 9 archers comes to mind, but I would need to go back and find my source.... John Warry and Warfare in the Ancient World maybe?

I think this kit could easily create that look.

I'm not sure how one rank of spear, spara or not would be in terms of staying power. If they had a degree of practice in using spears then surely they would have a few ranks so the spear would be a deterrent?

It's not my 'period' but one rank doesn't seem right as opposed to one rank of mini's which could represent a few at a pinch.

What do you think?

Offline Jjonas

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2020, 07:55:20 PM »
The sparabara shield bearer basically manned the barricade, while the archers in back shot overhead. The Persians would rush out in groups to fight offensively from behind the large shield barrier. The large wicker (pavisse like) barricade was more a protection from missiles than as a barricade to heavy infantry. The Persians mostly fought by missile fire, and combined arms harassment by cavalry, so these blocks of archers covered by a thin line of fighters worked for them against eastern enemies and horse archers, and even Ionian Greeks. The tactics failed against Greek hoplites determined to charge through the bowfire and knock over the shield wall. The unarmored archers were easily scattered once their file leaders were eliminated.
The Persians seemed to give up on this tactic, but we don't know much detail about the last armies if they still used the spara barriers- some say why not!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 07:22:35 AM by Jjonas »
JJonas

Offline Atheling

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2020, 08:57:11 PM »
The large wicker (pavisee) barricade was more a protection from missiles than as a barricade to heavy infantry.

Ah, I was referring to the one line of spearmen as opposed to the sparabara.

I cannot see one rank of spearmen deterring anything that came at them on two legs, or worse four. This is just not how spearmen fight defensively IMHO. You need ranks or you may as well just get stuck in with your sword.

Offline fastolfrus

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2020, 09:10:18 PM »
Maybe a single line of spearmen holding pavises was a psychological barrier for the archers standing behind them rather than a physical deterrent for the enemy?
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Offline Atheling

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2020, 09:54:36 PM »
Maybe a single line of spearmen holding pavises was a psychological barrier for the archers standing behind them rather than a physical deterrent for the enemy?

Possible. But only for inexperienced troops, which granted, they may well have been.

Offline Jjonas

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2020, 07:24:58 AM »
Up to nine archers formed up behind the sparabara shield bearer. This image is from the Achaemenid Persian Army by Duncan Head:



« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 07:27:50 AM by Jjonas »

Offline Jjonas

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2020, 07:34:02 AM »
This art by Giuseppe Rava gives a fleshed out view of the sparabara and the archers behind:

« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 07:37:05 AM by Jjonas »

Offline Harry Faversham

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2020, 09:11:42 AM »
Plenty to think about there as regards the 'look' of the thing.

 :)
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Offline Emir of Askaristan

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2020, 11:11:17 AM »
Quote from: J
Up to nine archers formed up behind the sparabara shield bearer. This image is from the Achaemenid Persian Army by Duncan Head:
[/quote

That's the one. Excellent book if you can get your mitts on it Harry.

Offline Easy E

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Re: Plastic Persians - Victrix Limited
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2020, 02:49:20 PM »
Ah, I was referring to the one line of spearmen as opposed to the sparabara.

I cannot see one rank of spearmen deterring anything that came at them on two legs, or worse four. This is just not how spearmen fight defensively IMHO. You need ranks or you may as well just get stuck in with your sword.

Most of the enemies of the Persians up to this point tend to fight in an Ancient Eastern tradition.  That meant, the decisive arm of combat was missile weaponry followed by mobile cavalry/chariot operations.  Therefore, the key to victory was massed firepower, and defense against such missile fire.  Shock combat such as the Greeks used was not the dominant type of fighting style the Persian army had to face, so in those situations where you could out firepower the enemy, the single Sparabara/spearman was enough.  The enemy wasn't really trying to come to grips with you the way the Greek fighting style did.

At least, that has been my reading on the subject.