Decent OoB for Japanese 38th Army 1945 - French Indochina

[JohnFoA]

Morning all

So what can the collective brain pop out?  I have the Wiki page and a (short) list of Infantry Divisions and can thus work out where they were.

However there is no sub-unit info (which Regiments in which Div) and unbelievably when I followed the Divisional links  there wasn't any garrison in Saigon!  Well that can't be correct.

Also listing showing separate units (there's a mixed Bde and some armour definitely) 

Since its nearly christmas (according to local shops) any info on IJAF and IJN would be fun too.

Right - off you go 

Seriously thanks for any help

John Bruce (yes him ex-FAA, ex-FOA)

Oh yes OP Masterdom is of interest to me.

[FreakyFenton]

I think bolt action alliance had a blog post on it or wwpd. It was the 5th regiment of the french foreign legion against a garrison force of the japanese army. If you look for that online you might find something of interest.

[88D]

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/明号作戦 the Japanese wiki has the regiments listed in the division pages.
Apparently the Independent hybrid 70th Brigade ( 独立混成第70旅団 ) was in Saigon and cochinchina

[JohnFoA]

Thanks, the Japanese wiki lead is nice - its more expansive than the French or English on and with G trans I can work out the technical stuff. Yes II/5th REI was there - 1st time any REI Bn surrendered without fighting IIRC

However it is more the  Aug 45 OoB I'm after - honestly I can work out the major units and their location but composition of Mixed Brigades (hybrid in translation) is of interest and no hint yet of the armour.

However wading through Japanese Wiki has lead to some stuff about Southern Army hq and (I assume associated logistics units)

Still hoping for more help there

Anyone got a copy of Victor Madej's old books?

Thanks again though.

[Osmoses]

Composition of Independent Brigades is on JACAR, though sometimes the scan quality is pretty poor.

For example, the 70th independent mixed brigade has 6 infantry battalions, a tank unit, an artillery unit, an engineer unit and a signals unit.

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/image/C15011188400

[JohnFoA]

Thanks Osomos  Okay so may have a break through after failing completely with English search I copied the Japanese off wiki!

Some joy but... for example in the one you demonstrate any idea what the column headings mean? Specifically are the date european of imperial calendar?  If Imperial do they do YY/MM/DD?? Or the way we may display a date with Year last by convention.

Thanks

John

[Osmoses]

Column headings are very difficult to read. I guess the 2nd one is the date the unit was raised, format is YY/MM/DD where the year is the Showa year so '18' is '1943.'

The 34th independent mixed brigade is here. Again, not a great scan, but looks to be:
Brigade HQ
6 infantry battalions
Artillery unit
Engineer unit
Signals unit
2 infantry battalions

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/meta/listPhoto?NO=203&DB_ID=G0000101EXTERNAL&ID=%24_ID&LANG=default&image_num=204&IS_STYLE=default&TYPE=PDF&DL_TYPE=pdf&REFCODE=C15011185400&CN=1

[JohnFoA]

Yeah I agree with you but....

I was wondering if dates sort of guide us to two units dropping out and being replacedby the two at the bottom?  Or perhaps these are widespread garrison units.


Thanks for the steer on date format.  Seems personnel totals are listed so that's handy. 

Great help,  thanks

[Osmoses]

I think the two units at the bottom may have been left off by mistake. They are the 187 and 188 so should be above the 189 and 190 (as also suggested by the numbers in the 'C. No.' column). It looks like the gun unit (and the other two auxiliary units following) also has a date of 18.11.16, though it's faint.

Whatever the C. No. column is, going by the numbers, those units with an entry belong to the original establishment and it appears that 4 infantry battalions (672nd - 675th) are added to it on 20.4.14. Maybe they were added to strengthen the brigade for front-line combat?

[JohnFoA]

Woo Hoo Osmoses that's fun.


I found from JCAR - sorry lost connecting link another listing for 34th

C15011188400.c1222800022.chuo-shusensyori-138.chuo-shusensyori-138_0268_01 - see attachment

Shows a bit more clearly HQ, 6 Inf Bn (428, 429, 430, 431, 670 & 677) plus Tank, Artillery, Eng and Sig Units. 

If the dates follow your YY/MM/DD format and 18=43; the majority of units where in from 1944 (19) but the two latter Bns join in 45 (20)

Does that make sense to you.  I'm looking at niehorster.org Japanese Independent Brigades organisation which this 'seems' to fit.

Thanks for your help - continue to value your assistance.

John

[JohnFoA]

Oh found this (see attachment) same source, which shows 8 Infantry Bns with different start dates in two sequences of four. So I now feel that these two (yours and this latter) being more representative - from unit numbers

And no Tank unit - I wonder if this had been detached and was a fully independent unit or they ran out of rows on the spreadsheet?

[Osmoses]

I think tank units are rare in independent brigades, most don't seem to have them, but 70th looks like it had one at establishment. Seems standard organisation is HQ, 4 inf battalions, Artillery, Engineers and Signals.

The 70th and 34th brigades both get extra battalions added on 14 April 1945, and the numbers of those battalions are close (670 + 677, and 672-675) so maybe it looks like a coordinated strengthening of those units?

[JohnFoA]

Yes that could it.  Certainly the serial numbers are from a matching and much later sequence.

Any idea where 70 Brigade was based?  34 is in IndoChina.

John

[Osmoses]

70th was also in Indochina. It participated in the Mei-Go Operation:

https://www.jacar.go.jp/english/glossary_en/term/0100-0040-0190-0010-0010-0010-0010-0050.html

[JohnFoA]

Ta.  Will look tomorrow,  afk now.  Cheers John