[commercial] CLASH of Spears coming Nov 13th

[D. Brownie]

Hi guys and thank you for your kind answers! (as always)

I appreciate the lighter way of treating pikes (vs SPQR ie), but the pike phalanx in itself can work only in great numbers and nobody would ever dreamed of employing it in small numbers (at least 256, maybe more) and in fast actions. Macedonians used pikes (about 5m long) only in large battles, otherwise pikes remained in the armory .... So 10 men equipped with pikes are not only useless but even historically impossible.
I'm quite integralist as you can see but I understand that most of the people don't care about such specialistic problems... 

Probably now you hate me but would be very useful a point system to make other list... 
Merry Christmas

[Burnin Coal]

I am still reading through the PDF of the rulebook (enjoying it greatly) so have yet to play a game....for what it’s worth and not wanting to disrespect those with far greater knowledge than me, I am one of those specifically catered for in the rulebook i.e. someone who wants to see an elephant on the table even if I know in advance that the chances of it helping me win will be somewhat slim as it were....

....the rules catering for those of us whose initial urge is to see something we like made and painted on the table rather than units eminently chosen to win was one of the key factors in getting me to back the Kickstarter....I daresay after a few good thrashings the pachyderms might have to go sit out games in their box but that I have rules that let me find out the hard way means that for me the games will be fun...

I would also add that in many years of delving into projects that ultimately lead me into getting sidetracked this game along with Mortal Gods has enthused me to the point of finishing all the figures that I’ve started...not only that but there are more on the way and my enthusiasm remains undiminished... so whatever you guys did from my perspective you did it right

Happy holidays to all

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Hi guys and thank you for your kind answers! (as always)

I appreciate the lighter way of treating pikes (vs SPQR ie), but the pike phalanx in itself can work only in great numbers and nobody would ever dreamed of employing it in small numbers (at least 256, maybe more) and in fast actions. Macedonians used pikes (about 5m long) only in large battles, otherwise pikes remained in the armory .... So 10 men equipped with pikes are not only useless but even historically impossible.
I'm quite integralist as you can see but I understand that most of the people don't care about such specialistic problems... 

Probably now you hate me but would be very useful a point system to make other list... 
Merry Christmas

I don't hate you, sure! 

Thing is that you can left pikes out of the equation. Clash of Spears is not a tournament set -at least, I don't think it would work as such- but scenario driven. You can choose to ignore pikes altogether and get your hypaspistas fighting as light troops.

Elephants, on the other hand, can be justified easily. CoS doesn't represent a particular kind of skirmish. It can be anything from pre-battle scouting to a small action happening in the fringes of a bigger battle. I can imagine a bunch of light troops trying to deal with an enemy elephant and its supporting troops, in the middle of a battle that is happening a few hundred yards from where they are engaging.

[D. Brownie]

Thanks,
it's right. When Macedonians kings went for small actions usually employed their elite force (hipaspists, in late times probably renamed peltasts) armed with spears and light/medium panoply, with other light armed troops. If in field battle they wore heavier Armour and probably took pikes...
I remember a text (Polibius probably) of macedonian peltasts crossing a river under enemy fire, and even it's not said they're not obviously armed with 5m long pikes

[Antonio J Carrasco]

I know that it is not strictly historical but I would dare to recommend you Christian Cameron's novels. It has a lot of inspiration for small scenarios involving all kind of troops. And he knows his stuff too. His first novels in the Tyrant series are top (I am not that fond of later instalments, though his description of the battle of Gaza is nail-biting), and his stand alone God of War novel, about Alexander -Ptolemy is the narrator- is full of scenes of combat that can work as great inspiration for scenarios, from cavalry clashes to light troops.

[Silent bob]

I'm looking forward to reading the rules and seeing if I can make an army list (probably by borrowing troop types from other lists) for my pet Spartacus Revolt project.

Cheers

SB

[seldon]

Hi guys and thank you for your kind answers! (as always)

I appreciate the lighter way of treating pikes (vs SPQR ie), but the pike phalanx in itself can work only in great numbers and nobody would ever dreamed of employing it in small numbers (at least 256, maybe more) and in fast actions. Macedonians used pikes (about 5m long) only in large battles, otherwise pikes remained in the armory .... So 10 men equipped with pikes are not only useless but even historically impossible.
I'm quite integralist as you can see but I understand that most of the people don't care about such specialistic problems... 

Probably now you hate me but would be very useful a point system to make other list... 
Merry Christmas

I cannot hate any backers .... I

I’ve seen reenactors operate in groups of 10-20 guys with sarissa length poles. I saw it in a historical study group at the University of Virginia. It was fun to see how they got totally disorganized going up a gentle hill.
 I would not say it is impossible, what I would agree is that is not useful. While you keep tight getting through the pikes would take effort but once disorganize there would be no reason not to switch to hand weapons. So that is what we did.

If you compare a hyspaspist/hoplite style unit to the pike unit you will see that anyone would alsways choose the hoplite style unit. They are there only in case someone wanted to put them because they like the minis or because of some scenario where they imagine a file of pikemen that got cut off and is working their way to the syntagma. If you decide to never use the pikemen, you will always be able to show a new opponent that you way is the better way.

Using units of foot companions with javelins is really the best option, once you play the game you will see how those units can easily defeat an equivalent unit armed with pikes...

Hopefully that allows us to keep the rules for completion while providing what it aims to be a reasonable historically appropriate system.

We will provide the full point system for you to make any lists, we even will provide some traits that are in playtest mode and the core design principles we use.

All that will be out online before the end of January.

Thanks for taking a chance with our rules, I do think that given the comments you are making you will find the rules match what you are looking for, I certainly hope so.

Francisco

[seldon]

I don't hate you, sure! 

Thing is that you can left pikes out of the equation. Clash of Spears is not a tournament set -at least, I don't think it would work as such- but scenario driven. You can choose to ignore pikes altogether and get your hypaspistas fighting as light troops.

Elephants, on the other hand, can be justified easily. CoS doesn't represent a particular kind of skirmish. It can be anything from pre-battle scouting to a small action happening in the fringes of a bigger battle. I can imagine a bunch of light troops trying to deal with an enemy elephant and its supporting troops, in the middle of a battle that is happening a few hundred yards from where they are engaging.

Well, we certainly aim for CLASH to be a system than can be used for tournaments. I’m not a tourney player, but Alvaro is. We both believe that tournaments can be useful to identify gaps in rules and balance inthe lists that we can fix over time. However, it is not ONlY a tournament system, so you will find many options that a min-max player would never use but that a scenario player would use. Our effort has been to make sure that it is never optimal for a min-max player to use things such as elephant or pikes so that you don’t see them in tourneys.

On the other hand, themed games can use them.. I’ve been working and testing a scenario  that could have happened after Hannibal crosses the Rhone on the way to the Alps. An elephant becomes a straggler and is trying to get back to the main column when it is ambushed by hostile gauls and carthaginian troops have to escort the elephant out of the ambush.

So we will always aim to satisfy the tournament player and the narrative player, and that is why sometimes you will find troops that a tournament player will look and say.. “why would I ever use those” , and we aim to make sure that “those” are the troops you would not normally see on a scouting skirmish or similar...

hope that makes sense...

Again thank you guys for dedicating your attention to our rules and in particular to Antonio for being a playtester, our many playtesters in different countries, (whom we have never met face to face ) have been fundamental in getting the rules to go from crazy convoluted ideas to a streamlined and effective system ( in my unbiased opinion )

regards
Francisco

[seldon]

I'm looking forward to reading the rules and seeing if I can make an army list (probably by borrowing troop types from other lists) for my pet Spartacus Revolt project.

Cheers

SB

As I mentioned we will provide full disclosure on points and we will be looking forward to player submitted lists to make available to the community, so for sure you’ll be able to come up with something for slave revolt.

Francisco

[seldon]

I am still reading through the PDF of the rulebook (enjoying it greatly) so have yet to play a game....for what it’s worth and not wanting to disrespect those with far greater knowledge than me, I am one of those specifically catered for in the rulebook i.e. someone who wants to see an elephant on the table even if I know in advance that the chances of it helping me win will be somewhat slim as it were....

....the rules catering for those of us whose initial urge is to see something we like made and painted on the table rather than units eminently chosen to win was one of the key factors in getting me to back the Kickstarter....I daresay after a few good thrashings the pachyderms might have to go sit out games in their box but that I have rules that let me find out the hard way means that for me the games will be fun...

I would also add that in many years of delving into projects that ultimately lead me into getting sidetracked this game along with Mortal Gods has enthused me to the point of finishing all the figures that I’ve started...not only that but there are more on the way and my enthusiasm remains undiminished... so whatever you guys did from my perspective you did it right

Happy holidays to all

Thank you for the fine comments and we’ll make sure to come up with scenarios that justify having that elephant

[craigjwoodfield]

I played a game today with a KS backer. I don't have the rulebook with me, and doubtless we made many mistakes, but overall I found the rules disappointing. Far too many counters, and rules associated with counters, would sum up my experience. I was also annoyed that a 40 model game requires 2 or 3 characters, rather than  actual units having limited autonomy.

I will play again to be sure, to be fair, but I am not optimistic. I do appreciate it was written by people who actually understand the period, unlike SPQR.

[seldon]

well, I understand, people have different preferences I respect that.

Yes the counters are needed, unit will have normally two, activation and fatigue ( similar to bolt action ), and sometimes you might have a special condition like “unloaded”.
And it is true that they are critical to the system as the number of actions taken and the amount of fatigue on a unit have dramatic impact on the options and performance for that unit.

And yes the characters are a key part of the game rather than the units acting independently as this is a core aspect of the game... and it is an aspect that will be developed further in future supplements. Given how command and control works in the system there is not really a way to avoid it.

Because there is no limit to the number of characters ( except no more than units), you could if you wanted assign a character to each unit and thus the units would act independently...

but, I totally understand if it is not your game and I do appreciate the reference to understanding the period, I’m happy that you got that feeling even if you were looking for a different kind of game.

thank you for giving it a try and I’m glad that you guys understood the rules and got a game out of it enough to form an opinion on the mechanics, and specially appreciated since I like your work in Ronin ( a game I like very much ).


regards,
Francisco

[Andrew_McGuire]

I may have missed a key part of the discussion about the use of pezhetairoi in CoS, but from the recent comments I get the impression one aspect of their tactics is being overlooked. Irrespective of the option to replace the sarissa with javelins, the pike itself was, I believe, constructed from two parts, and in certain circumstances - e.g. assaulting a walled town, where the full-length pike would be totally impractical - the top half alone would be used, making the pikemen into hoplites for the duration of the engagement. More recent research may have discredited this theory, for all I know, but it appears to make sense. How the rules allow for this is not something I am in a position to comment on.

[D. Brownie]

Never heard about this 2 part theory... Certainly ancient sources did not speak about it.... If you read Polibius (which is well informed) the only "certain circumstance" of employment is very long files and depth ranks (8-16 men) standing or going straightforward on plain terrains in big battles. And the flank would have been well protected, because the phalanx was almost incapable of changing direction...

[seldon]

I may have missed a key part of the discussion about the use of pezhetairoi in CoS, but from the recent comments I get the impression one aspect of their tactics is being overlooked. Irrespective of the option to replace the sarissa with javelins, the pike itself was, I believe, constructed from two parts, and in certain circumstances - e.g. assaulting a walled town, where the full-length pike would be totally impractical - the top half alone would be used, making the pikemen into hoplites for the duration of the engagement. More recent research may have discredited this theory, for all I know, but it appears to make sense. How the rules allow for this is not something I am in a position to comment on.

Yes I’ve actually read about that, however for rules purposes they are then no different than hoplite style infantry when it comes to the mechanics and that troop type is already in the list so there was no point in adding a duplicate.

But yes I’ve read that, can’t remember where, maybe An Invencible Beast by C.  Mathew ?

One way or the other you have plenty of options in the Phyrric list that allow you “not to bring pike phalanx to a skirmish raid “ ( maybe we can say that with Sean Connery’s voice ? )