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Author Topic: Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze  (Read 1091 times)

Offline Easy E

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Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze
« on: October 10, 2019, 07:45:58 PM »
Greetings,

As a follow-up project to Men of Bronze, I wanted to make a Thessalian army list.  This is an area that did not make it into the original book.  I was rightly called out for this oversight by the Irrregular Warfare blog.   ;)

http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2019/04/review-of-ospreys-men-of-bronze.html

I wanted to get the communities help in building such a list. 

The creation of this list will be in the public domain and the list itself will stay here for public use, and be re-posted on the Blood and Spectacles Blog and Message board for open use.  I will also submit it to Osprey in a formal document where they can choose to place it on their resources page if they like.     

As a designer, one of the great and terrifying things about making a Historical based game is that there is always someone who knows more about the topic than you do.  Therefore, I am reaching out here for just such people to help me out!  I admit, the history of Thessaly is not my strong suit.   

You do not need a copy of Men of Bronze to participate in this project, but it will probably help as we talk about some of the troop types, army structures, and mechanics to help make this list successful. 

To get us started, it might be helpful to read up here on Thessaly and Thessalian cavalry.

http://historandmor.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-thessalian-cavalry.html

If you have other resources that are easy to share, please do so.  So, based on a quick reading here are a couple things that stand out....

1. Thessaly has a lot of cavalry forces, but also had other units
2. By Alexander's time (after Men of Bronze) Thessalians used heavy cavalry.
3. The Rhomboid formation was a Thessalian specialty
4. Hoplites and Peltasts may have existed, but they were "non-traditional" in nature

So, that is what we have to start with?  How would you proceed and build the list?  Is there a particularly well-known Thessalian battle to make a Historical Scenario from? 

I am eager to learn more. 
 


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Offline Easy E

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Re: Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 12:50:11 PM »
I don't speak or read German, but apparently this guy makes the case, and it is not the first time I have read it.  It makes the case that there was a heavy Peltast/Hoplite hybrid that used larger shields, threw javelins, and fought on foot int eh Thessalian army? 

Saal, Patrick - Das Thessalische Militär, eine Domäne der Kavallerie?, Bachelor Thesis for the Helmut Schmidt University 2009, Dept of History, GRIN Verlag GmbH, Norderstedt 2010

I have a feeling this maybe a minority view, as Xenophon references Hoplites.  However, ancient Greek definitions were less strict than our "modern" classifications.  Plus, the half-armor Hermithorakion was made popular with officers in Thessaly by Jason of Pherea, so the armament of these non-cavalry "heavy" soldiers has potentially become more interesting.   

Offline Easy E

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Re: Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2019, 06:26:52 PM »
Heavy Cavalry seems to have been a thing against Phillip II, which is "in scope" for Men of Bronze. 

During this time the "Rhomboid" formation was a thing, so a new formation maybe needed. 

In addition, the Thessalian cavalry had a heavier emphasis on Javelins than Companion heavy cavalry.  Therefore, Thesaalian Heavy Cavalry will be somewhat different than those found in Men of Bronze so far. 

I will have to think about how to make this army list different than existing Cavalry heavy forces.....


... any thoughts?   
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 06:30:20 PM by Easy E »

Offline Easy E

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Re: Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2019, 06:50:20 PM »
I also found the following:

Quote
Fighting as heavy cavalry,
i.e. operating in close formation, the Thessalians mayhave been armed in a similar fashion as the Companions (Hammond 1989, 106).Thessalian aristocrats may even have influenced their Macedonian fellow noblesin this respect in the course of the fourth century. Relatively heavy armament inany case will have been necessary to bear up against heavily-armed Iranian caval-ry. This means that the Thessalians may have worn linen cuirasses, helmets, pteruges and greaves. Bronze armor and shields will have been exceptional
24
. The rhomboid formation, if historical, suggests that they were armed with a long cav-alry lance, probably supplemented by a cavalry saber (
kopis). In combination with a lance the use of a shield is not likely. The use of horse armor seems unlikely too
25

https://www.academia.edu/1826328/Alexanders_Thessalian_Cavalry_2011_



From this article they also pointed to some mentions in Herodotus, Xenophon, and Thucydides as far back as the Greek-Persian wars. However, from what I gleaned from going back, there was not much to work off of.  Again, the focus was on cavalry actions.   

Offline Easy E

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Re: Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2019, 07:40:49 PM »
After reviewing Herodotus, here is what I found about Thessaly....

Apparently, Cleomenes I the Spartan king tried to overthrow the Tyrant of Athens.  A guy names Hippias.  He sent some ships and they began to unload the troops at Phalerum.  However, before the Spartans could form up into Line of Battle, they were attacked and routed by mercenary forces that were Thessalian Cavalry.  A follow-up engagement between the Spartans and Thessalians show the Spartans beating them pretty decisively in battle.  This was all prior to the Persian Wars.

This book I ran across online was also helpful to me in my research....

https://books.google.com/books?id=6z6foPWT3_oC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=herodotus+Thessalian+cavalry&source=bl&ots=KgmTQ0DlPv&sig=ACfU3U0b7UL4ZIklWeGmJMMpu3DEBaP6Lw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi96bTemMLlAhXhNX0KHesJB0IQ6AEwDHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=herodotus%20Thessalian%20cavalry&f=false



 


Offline Easy E

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Re: Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 02:08:52 PM »
Here is a great link provided to me by DuracellRabbit on the DakkaDakka forums....

Quote
I found this: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4ktsij/why_were_cavalry_forces_seemingly_always_so_small/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=AskHistorians&utm_content=t1_e75sihz

The poster Iphikrates is Dr Konijnendijk, author of the above book, and it's mainly his posts I was looking at. The thread is mostly about cavalry in general but has numbers of 20,000 hoplites and 8,000 cavalry, and 10,000 hoplites and 6,000 cavalry as potential levy sizes for the Thessalians.

Very good stuff. 

I think I am getting close to putting Pen to Paper.

One other thing I found fun was a section of Herodotus regarding Xerxes in Thessaly.  Xerxes organized a race between Persian cavalry and allowed Thessallian cavalry to participate.  Xerxes had heard they were the best cavalry in Greece and wanted to get their measure.  The Thessalians did not do well against the Persian cavalry in the competition.  Who knows if this is true or if the race was "rigged", or the Thessalians didn't put their all into it, or if old Herodotus is just making stuff up!  Just an amusing story.     
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:12:28 PM by Easy E »

Offline Easy E

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Re: Creating a Thessalian Army list for Men of Bronze
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2019, 06:10:30 PM »
For those interested, you can find the lists and a scenario at my blog:

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/men-of-bronze-thessaly-army-list.html