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Author Topic: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk  (Read 593 times)

Offline Sandinista

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Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« on: November 19, 2019, 08:18:11 AM »
Does anyone have any idea what banner Richard de la Pole may have carried whilst in French service? I have found his father's and brothers arms but not his?
Cheers
Ian

Offline vexillia

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2019, 11:02:29 AM »
Firstly it appears he was never a Duke.  Some further points:

[1] Richard's father became Earl in 1415 & Duke in 1448.
[2] Richard's brother Edmund became 3rd Duke of Suffolk in 1492.
[3] Edmund surrendered the Dukedom to become "just" Earl of Suffolk in 1495.
[4] Edmund died in 1513 when Richard assumed the title of Earl of Suffolk.
[5] Richard's elder brother William died a captive in the Tower of 37 years in 1539.
[6] Richard, unmarried, died at Pavia in French service 1525.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_la_Pole,_1st_Duke_of_Suffolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_de_la_Pole,_3rd_Duke_of_Suffolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_de_la_Pole
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_la_Pole_(1478%E2%80%931539)

Given the above you have two options depending on your assumptions:

[1] He used his father's arms which you have found.
[2] He used the families arms - see the wikipedia links.

As he was only "pretending" to be an Earl, and had a living elder brother who would normally inherit the title,   it's a pretty open choice.  My choice would be the full family arms of his father to bolster his "assumed" status as Earl.

It's worth noting that both arms have nothing to do with the title of Duke.  His father's, brother's & grandfather's arms (as Earl's of Suffolk) are the same.
Martin Stephenson
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Offline Sandinista

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2019, 07:28:22 PM »
And from the same wikipedia link " In a picture of the battle, preserved at the Ashmolean Museum at Oxford, his lifeless body is represented in the thick of the combat with the inscription Le Duc de Susfoc dit Blance Rose (The Duke of Suffolk, known as White Rose)".
So it seems he was known later as Duke
I have cobbled together this from his brothers and fathers arms, but am hoping to locate his actual ones

Ian

Offline vexillia

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2019, 11:24:11 PM »
So it seems he was known later as Duke
Only by the French and for their own reasons.  Some further points:

[1] The Dukedom of Suffolk was surrendered by the de la Poles in 1493(5?).
[2] In 1514 Charles Brandon became Duke of Suffolk until his death in 1545.
[3] The French court would have known all of this this. 
[4] The French were using "Duc" as a generic honourific for a "valued" guest: think Prince or similar.
[5] "Known as" and "was" are different: pretender versus appointed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_in_France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dukedoms_in_the_peerages_of_Britain_and_Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Suffolk#Dukes_of_Suffolk,_second_Creation_(1514)

I suspect the French were simple boosting his claim to the English title to reinforce his status and as a potential leader of a French invasion, and future subject king,  of England.  Think medieval PR or modern day "useful idiot".
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 11:04:57 AM by vexillia »

Offline Sandinista

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2019, 11:53:26 PM »
Thanks for the responses.
I am aware of his status as the last Yorkist pretender, which is why he is of interest. I have a half formed (baked) idea of a "what if" campaign of a French backed invasion.
Would make for some fun in 15mm

cheers
Ian

Offline Sandinista

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2019, 06:44:33 AM »
A bit more playing around

Offline vexillia

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2019, 11:04:02 AM »
I wonder how the King of France would have viewed this standard containing as it does the arms of the King of France?  Tricky.

Offline Sandinista

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2019, 11:56:27 PM »
I guess he had similar feelings to Louis XIV in later years with his puppet pretenders  :)

Offline Atheling

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2019, 09:24:47 AM »
I guess he had similar feelings to Louis XIV in later years with his puppet pretenders  :)

Martin raises an interesting question; was Richard de la Pole still a realistic option as pretender for the English throne? It seems unlikely. There fore would he have removed the arms of France?  ??? ??? ???


Offline Sandinista

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2019, 11:07:58 AM »
Seems that he was seen as a pawn in France's politics as and when it suited the French, similar to how they supported the Jacobites
"when Louis XII. went to war with England in 1512 he recognized Pole's pretensions to the English crown" and "He had numerous interviews with Francis I., and in 1523 he was permitted, in concert with John Stewart, duke of Albany, the Scottish regent, to arrange an invasion of England," from wikipedia https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Pole,_Richard_de_la

Offline Atheling

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2019, 11:17:49 AM »
Seems that he was seen as a pawn in France's politics as and when it suited the French, similar to how they supported the Jacobites
"when Louis XII. went to war with England in 1512 he recognized Pole's pretensions to the English crown" and "He had numerous interviews with Francis I., and in 1523 he was permitted, in concert with John Stewart, duke of Albany, the Scottish regent, to arrange an invasion of England," from wikipedia https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Pole,_Richard_de_la

He wouldn't be the first with varying degrees of support. Just think Henry Tudor prior to Bosworth, Warwick  and Margaret of Anjou prior to Barnet and Tewkesbury respectively.

I didn't actually know that Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk had allied with John Stewart, duke of Albany so this is very interesting to me.

Offline Sandinista

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Re: Richard de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2019, 04:47:25 AM »
Further doodlings, based upon fathers in Freezywater book.
Any thoughts?