Military orders in France

[ColonelMutumbu]

Looking to plumb the depths of peoples knowledge here.

I have it in my head that it might be fun to add some templaresque chaps to my HYW french. From some quick research it appears that templars had been dissolved well before this time.

Does anyone know of any other military orders that survived into this period in France, and may plausibly have taken up arms in the defence of thier host kingdom against the depradations of the english marauders.

(as a note this is not the worlds most historically accurate HYW army so they just need to be loosely plausible I.E. established in france at the time and had still had some military component, not just hospitals, banks etc)

[Sir_Theo]

I'll be interested to see what people come up with as this is an interesting question.

The only order I could come up with who retained a military function are the Order of Aubrac, generally a hospitialler order, but I couldn't find anything about any actual military involvement in the wars of the 14th and 15th centuries. They seem to have had Knights in the order though.

[Metternich]

I knew about this, but the Wikipedia article had the details.  Not a crusading order, more of a deluxe order.

The Order of the Star (French: Ordre de l'Étoile) or Company of the Star was an order of chivalry founded on 6 November 1351 by John II of France in imitation of the Order of the Garter founded in 1347 by Edward III of England. The inaugural ceremony of the order took place on 6 January 1352 at Saint-Ouen, from which it is sometimes called the Order of Knights of the Noble House of Saint Ouen.[1]

The order was inspired by Geoffroy de Charny, theoretician of chivalry and elite knight who ultimately earned the apex privilege of Oriflamme bearer. In part it was intended to prevent the disaster of Crécy and to this end only success on the battlefield counted towards a member's merit, not success in tournaments. By its statutes, members also received a small payment and the order provided housing in retirement. They were sworn not to retreat or move more than four arpents (about six acre's breadths) from a battle. This last provision cost the lives of ninety members of the order at the Battle of Mauron in 1352, and at the Battle of Poitiers in 1356 cost the king his freedom when many, if not most, of his fellow knights of the Star lost their lives. The Order fell rapidly into disuse during John's captivity in London, but afterwards the nominal ranks swelled so enormously that by the time of Charles V its bestowal was meaningless

[ColonelMutumbu]

Hmmm not exactly what I was imagining Metternich, but promising nonetheless, it certainly seems that they would have fought together as a group based on the fact that they were sworn not to retreat more than a certain distance, and that many members were wiped out at Mauron as a result of this.

It seems unlikely in reality that they would have worn unified colours on the battlefield in the same way the Templars and Hospitallers did, and would probably have worn thier own heraldry with a badge of the order somewhere about them. However I think theres enough to go on that would justify me painting and modelling them in the colours of the order to differentiate them, and the fact that small badges of the order would not really be visible in 28mm scale.
   

[Atheling]

Hmmm not exactly what I was imagining Metternich, but promising nonetheless, it certainly seems that they would have fought together as a group based on the fact that they were sworn not to retreat more than a certain distance, and that many members were wiped out at Mauron as a result of this.

I'm not so sure, would they not have been spread out with their own retinues as was the general practice?

[bluewillow]

The military orders were all dissolved in France and the HRE by the papal bull of Chinnon 1312, so no chance of any military orders in the HYW.

Any military order after that were raised and awarded  by the King, swore allegiance to the king only, and were all of the upper nobles of the kingdom. This is the case for HRE, Hungary, England and castille.

Navarrre, Castille, Portugal, Spain and Malta still allowed some military orders to operate but many still swore allegiance to the king over the church.

Why not some of the mercenary free company’s La Hire’s red band or the “Band Blanches” white company  led by Arnaud de Cervole in France etc

A starter list
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_company
Cheers
Matt

[Duncan McDane]

An interesting read & subject. Thanks for posting.

[Antonio J Carrasco]

At the battle of Nájera (1367) there were knights of Santiago, Calatrava and San Juan in the main force of King Henry II of Trastamara. Calatrava's and Santiago's fought in the right flank, mounted; San Juan in the left flank, mostly as light horsemen.

[Atheling]

At the battle of Nájera (1367) there were knights of Santiago, Calatrava and San Juan in the main force of King Henry II of Trastamara. Calatrava's and Santiago's fought in the right flank, mounted; San Juan in the left flank, mostly as light horsemen.

Interesting that they fought as Jinettes(?). Or have I misunderstood?

The Jinettes did have a hard time of it at Najera as I don't think they were at all expecting the massed archery of the English warbows. This wan't helped by the nature of the Jinettes lighter armours either..... however, I digress......

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Interesting that they fought as Jinettes(?). Or have I misunderstood?

The Jinettes did have a hard time of it at Najera as I don't think they were at all expecting the massed archery of the English warbows. This wan't helped by the nature of the Jinettes lighter armours either..... however, I digress......

What I meant is that they didn't dismount to fight, like the French knights were becoming adept to do. The center was formed by 1,000 men approximately, mostly from the mercenary companies recruited by Du Glescin, Castilian knights, council militias and, as skirmishers, slingers. In the flanks, where the knights from the Military Orders, together with Aragonese knights in the right, and light horse in the left. All of them were mounted. The knights of the Order of San Juan were traditional heavy horse, but few in number; though neither Froissart nor Lopez de Ayala specify their role, I guess they served as a nucleus of heavy horse in the left for the more numerous light horsemen (jinetes) deployed there. Anyway the light horse didn't play a significant role in the battle, as they were easy picks for the English archers.

In the second line there were the rest of the army, about 1,500-2,000 men, all mounted, mostly Castilian knights and council militia knights. Think of these last as "urban knights", i.e. individuals that besides their profession also fought mounted; the richest could be as richly equiped as any knight, while the poorest would have a horse, a helmet, adarga -a short of shield of Berber origin- and lance, maybe a sword too, commonly a family heirloom.

English archers were in the center of the Black Prince deployment, not in the wings, so they did fight against the dismounted Trastamara's center, i.e. the Merc Companies, but also impeded that the Castilian light horse in the left supported Du Glescin in the center, when he started the advance. Regretfully Lopez de Ayala is not very specific and he doesn't tell how many English archers were used to stop cold the light horse. I guess that not many, because excepted the knights of San Juan and the commanders the rest of the combatants in that wing weren't equiped to deal with the English warbow. I suspect that just a hundred, or even less, English archers would have sufficed to put them to flight; I believe that the majority of the English archers focused their attentions against the center, while just a score was devoted to the right. I can be wrong though... it has been years since last time I read Lopez de Ayala's Chronicle!

The Orders knights were, therefore, set against the men-at-arms of the mercerany companies at the service of Pedro el Cruel, among them Captal de Buch's company.

[Atheling]

What I meant is that they didn't dismount to fight, like the French knights were becoming adept to do. The center was formed by 1,000 men approximately, mostly from the mercenary companies recruited by Du Glescin, Castilian knights, council militias and, as skirmishers, slingers. In the flanks, where the knights from the Military Orders, together with Aragonese knights in the right, and light horse in the left. All of them were mounted. The knights of the Order of San Juan were traditional heavy horse, but few in number; though neither Froissart nor Lopez de Ayala specify their role, I guess they served as a nucleus of heavy horse in the left for the more numerous light horsemen (jinetes) deployed there. Anyway the light horse didn't play a significant role in the battle, as they were easy picks for the English archers.

In the second line there were the rest of the army, about 1,500-2,000 men, all mounted, mostly Castilian knights and council militia knights. Think of these last as "urban knights", i.e. individuals that besides their profession also fought mounted; the richest could be as richly equiped as any knight, while the poorest would have a horse, a helmet, adarga -a short of shield of Berber origin- and lance, maybe a sword too, commonly a family heirloom.

English archers were in the center of the Black Prince deployment, not in the wings, so they did fight against the dismounted Trastamara's center, i.e. the Merc Companies, but also impeded that the Castilian light horse in the left supported Du Glescin in the center, when he started the advance. Regretfully Lopez de Ayala is not very specific and he doesn't tell how many English archers were used to stop cold the light horse. I guess that not many, because excepted the knights of San Juan and the commanders the rest of the combatants in that wing weren't equiped to deal with the English warbow. I suspect that just a hundred, or even less, English archers would have sufficed to put them to flight; I believe that the majority of the English archers focused their attentions against the center, while just a score was devoted to the right. I can be wrong though... it has been years since last time I read Lopez de Ayala's Chronicle!

The Orders knights were, therefore, set against the men-at-arms of the mercerany companies at the service of Pedro el Cruel, among them Captal de Buch's company.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

From memory, it was Bertrand du Guesclin and his men dismounted in the voward. Followed by Henry of Trastamara and his mounted men at arms. On the flanks were Don Tello and Carillo de Quintana with some mounted men at arms but mainly lighter cavalry (Jinetes).

For a moment I thought that you were suggesting that the Military orders were fighting as light cavalry which would have gone against all their military training. Obviously you were not

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

From memory, it was Bertrand du Guesclin and his men dismounted in the voward. Followed by Henry of Trastamara and his mounted men at arms. On the flanks were Don Tello and Carillo de Quintana with some mounted men at arms but mainly lighter cavalry (Jinetes).

For a moment I thought that you were suggesting that the Military orders were fighting as light cavalry which would have gone against all their military training. Obviously you were not

Yeah, my first message was ambiguous. No surprise that you thought that!

If I recall right, Jinetes were deployed in the left, but in the right it was heavy cavalry mostly. I have not my books at hand... Damm! I'll check Sumption. I know he wrote about the battle in his second volume of the Hundred Years War... By the way, you wouldn't know if he will continue his history of the HYW, would you? I hope he does, but couldn't find any news on the Internet.  

[Atheling]

Sumption.

The best