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Author Topic: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?  (Read 1907 times)

Offline Atheling

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Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« on: December 04, 2019, 03:06:15 PM »
I was wondering what my fellow LAF members think about the appearance, arms and armour of the Constatine of Scotland, Owain of Strathclyde and the Welsh Princes, Hywel Dda, Idwal Foel and Morgan ap Owain respectively at Brunanburh; how would they have looked?

I suppose that my question is, as Brunanburh is (almost) mid 10th Century, would there have been more homogeneity in the appearance of the above 'armies'?

For example, one would expect there to be little difference between a Scottish Lowlander and a Northumbrian soldier?

Most of the Saxon and Norse forces pretty much take care of themselves.

I sit here pondering..... :)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 03:34:05 PM by Atheling »

Offline OB

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2019, 07:35:38 PM »
I'd have thought the military kit as opposed to the clothes would have been very similar.  The clothing presumably reflected local fashion.

Did the Northumbrians only field aristocratic warriors and their retainers at this time?  Or was there a wider levy?

I'd have thought the Scots soldiers would come from a wider social range with every free man potentially being liable for service.  In that case a lot of them would not have been as well equipped as the professionals.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2019, 07:35:01 AM »
I'd have thought the military kit as opposed to the clothes would have been very similar.  The clothing presumably reflected local fashion.

These are my thoughts too. I just can't see a drastic regional trend towards a radical contrast in clothing and weaponry taking place. This is why I posed the question :)

Did the Northumbrians only field aristocratic warriors and their retainers at this time?  Or was there a wider levy?

My guess (and that's all we can really do) is that they would mostly from the Select Fyrd and the Scots equivalent, if there was one(?), so it's very difficult to answer the question without written sources on the compostion of Scots armies in 937. If anyone has any links or references to any sources I'd love to hear from you ;) .
 
I'd have thought the Scots soldiers would come from a wider social range with every free man potentially being liable for service.  In that case a lot of them would not have been as well equipped as the professionals.

Perhaps their Pictish allies? I'm quite reasonably with that the close geographical proximity of of Strathclyde and Northumbria, there would have been some sort of cultural fusion. 

The map below if from a little earlier then 937 but it is a good measure of how close Northumbria and Strathclyde were at a similar time in history.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 12:26:06 PM by Atheling »

Offline OB

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2019, 02:16:02 PM »
As you say we are pretty much guessing.  I'm not too bad on the earlier period late Roman/post Roman but this period, interesting as it is, remains obscure to me.

That said Cumbria might give us some clues.  Charles-Edwards is very interesting on the Bitish/Brythonic World which he locates from the Loire to the Firth.  It's a few years since I read it but I enjoyed it a lot and learned a lot.  If I recall right he thought the near continual change in over lords of Cumbria produced a multi lingual society there.

Borders can lead to cultural exchanges but they can also produce intense animosity.   To off set that there seems to have been lots of royal intermarriages between the various dynasties.

Peter Heather has some interesting things to say about Northumbria but I don't recall which of his books covers it.  I do remember that he laments the number of Northumbrian texts destroyed by the Vikings.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2019, 05:52:18 PM »
As you say we are pretty much guessing.  I'm not too bad on the earlier period late Roman/post Roman but this period, interesting as it is, remains obscure to me.

Charles-Edwards

I'm looking up the chap now- thanks :)

Offline OB

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2019, 06:55:55 PM »
I think the one you might want is called Wales and the Britons 350-1064.   All of his stuff is worth reading and you can find some of his lectures on youtube.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2019, 09:02:32 PM »
I think the one you might want is called Wales and the Britons 350-1064.

I found a bibliography on the net. The book is going for £30 plus.... has it much information about the general look of a 'welsh' warrior in the late 11th century?

All of his stuff is worth reading and you can find some of his lectures on youtube.

Now that's a search that's going to happen now! Thanks again :)

Offline OB

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2019, 12:11:38 AM »
Very little on how they looked so it might not be what you want.

Have you signed up to jstor?  It's free and there are thousands of academic essays that you can search.  You might turn up the info' you are looking for.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Battle of Brunanburh: Arms and Armour of the Welsh and Scots?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2019, 11:39:14 AM »
Very little on how they looked so it might not be what you want.

Have you signed up to jstor?  It's free and there are thousands of academic essays that you can search.  You might turn up the info' you are looking for.

Yeah, I have. Unfortunately I'm not going to have the time to read much as I'm currently concentrating on Sagrajas 1084 for Partizan in May and have a couple of other projects in the planning stages, one being Burnanburgh.

I did have a look at the Crusader Scots range and I think I might ge close if I included some of their Scots, with bare legs, mixed with some of their Saxon Thegns and a few bareheaded warriors (which seems very fanciful!) but might give the 937 army of Strathclyde a degree of zest without overdoing it. I will be looking further into the matter down the road. For poorer warriors I''ve got my eyes set on various manufacturers bare headed warriors but without short trews.