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Author Topic: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War  (Read 1956 times)

Offline OB

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Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« on: December 26, 2019, 11:03:44 AM »
I Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas.  My latest post on the Nine Years War is now on my blog.  Its about how the Irish lords managed to recruit and sustain a modern army from a dispersed rural population.  If it's of interest here is the link.

https://youdonotknowthenorth.blogspot.com


Offline Baron von Wreckedoften

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2019, 07:47:49 PM »
Same to you - and an excellent article with which to end the year.

All the best for 2020!!!
No plan survives first contact with the dice.

Offline OB

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2019, 09:24:04 AM »
Thanks Baron and the same to you.

2020 will bring the Battle of the Moyry Pass and the Battle of Kinsale.

Offline jambo1

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2019, 09:32:16 AM »
Another very interesting read, looking forward to more in the new year. :)

Offline has.been

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2019, 10:15:07 AM »
Once again thanks for posting.
Fascinating stuff. I also like the illustrations of the buildings, great for scratch building.

Offline Romark

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2019, 11:18:43 AM »
Great stuff! :)


Offline OB

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2019, 12:31:47 PM »
Thank you lads.  As ever it's much appreciated.

I was hoping someone would pick up on the illustration I think it's a very useful one.  I intend to do a piece on terrain etc for the Nine Years War.  As an example the Irish liked to crow cereal crops in raised beds.  This meant a wheat field at full growth was high enough to mask troops.  Crops were intensively cultivated wherever the land was suitable.

English forts of the period have a real frontier look and of course round houses and crannogs were still in use.  The English used bell tents when in the field and seem to have liked to erected them in a circle.  There is a lot more for us to look at.

Offline Baron von Wreckedoften

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2019, 02:55:19 PM »
Also worth noting that modern versions of crops are shorter (thus they waste less of their "growing energy" on stalks, and reach harvesting maturity faster), which also contributes to them providing less cover than their "ancient" counterparts.

Looking forward to reading more from you in 2020 (btw, I have Hayes-McCoy's Irish Battles and Irish Flags books - both excellent).

Offline OB

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2019, 09:43:19 AM »
Baron, does Hayes-McCoy in Irish Flags describe any Irish flags in our period?

Offline Baron von Wreckedoften

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2019, 10:17:53 PM »
Unfortunately, I won't be able to access my copy until after the New Year, as it's stuck behind stacked boxes whilst we have relatives staying with us.   If nobody else has answered by the middle of next week, I should be able to dig it out and look.

Offline TheBlackCrane

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2019, 08:41:50 PM »
Another splendid post, really been enjoying your blog posts as I've nearly come to the end of 2 years of painting C16th for Ireland (plus Spanish and fictional Armada landings), so getting loads of inspiration for games, terrain and more additions to my forces.

Offline OB

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2019, 11:53:10 AM »
Thanks Baron.

Thank you too The Black Crane.  I hope we will see some of your games here.

Offline Baron von Wreckedoften

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2020, 02:10:26 PM »
Baron, does Hayes-McCoy in Irish Flags describe any Irish flags in our period?

Sadly, whilst he ostensibly devotes an entire chapter to the period we are interested in (1560-1660), the vast bulk of it is devoted to the debate over the origins of the St Patrick saltire and its use as a representation of Ireland.  He acknowledges its use in the arms of the "Great" Fitzgerald (the 8th Earl who was steward of Ireland until the reign of Henry VIII) and mentions that its use in the new Union Flag of 1801 was dismissed by many in Ireland as an invention to include an Irish symbol in that flag, and its historical origins were in the arms of the "Anglo" Royal proxy Fitzgerald.  However, H-M also points to uses unconnected to Fitzgerald, citing early 17th Century paintings of Trinity College (where it is flown next to what is clearly a St George's cross) and the city of Cork, neither of which had links to the 8th Earl.  He also refers to Irish soldiers in England wearing it as a badge.  All this springs from his examination of ancient paintings of the battles of Yellow Ford, and Kinsale.  In both, the English forces are - unsurprisingly - using the cross of St George, but in the latter the opposition are using what had been interpreted as the traditional Bourbon Spanish emblem of the red ragged saltire, but which he suggests is a much simplified version, which could be interpreted as a St Patrick's saltire.

In terms of clan/regimental colours, he has little to offer, beyond descriptions of standard bearers being killed in battle, or flags being flown from battlements.  In terms of the appearance of these flags, there are only the horse and foot standards of the Macguire clan (against whom O,Neill fought FOR the English) at Ballyshannon in 1593 - that of the former being white with a black cross whose arms do not reach the borders (not unlike some of the 1813 Landwehr flags), and the latter being a large white flag, taller than it is wide, with two black horizontal lines (suggesting a motto, perhaps?).  These descriptions are taken from a contemporary painting of the action at Ballyshannon in the British Library; there is also a reference to one of O'Neills lieutenants being unable to find enough yellow and red taffeta in Dublin for "a pair of colours".

Sorry not to have been of more help!

Offline OB

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2020, 03:17:58 PM »
That's actually very helpful Baron thanks very much.

I'd say it is the St. Patrick's saltire rather than the ragged cross.  The plan was to install one of the younger Spanish prince's as Prince of Ireland with the Irish lords doing the actual governing but as we know that didn't happen.  Not enough time for the ragged red saltire to be widely adopted in my view. 

Offline Baron von Wreckedoften

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Re: Recruiting the new Irish Army in the Nine Years War
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2020, 07:27:16 AM »
Interesting that the ragged version of the red saltire is related to St Andrew, rather than St Patrick.