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Author Topic: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?  (Read 1500 times)

Offline Matheo

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2020, 06:03:39 PM »
Hello
I'm in the process of doing a very similar project (hellenistic KoM army for Kings of War). I bought both Warlord's and Aventine's elephants.
They are almost identical in height, but Warlord's is considerably bulkier and has thicker legs. It's also somewhat easier to build, even though three of the legs are separate pieces. Aventine kit requires a bit more filling, and a bit more cleaning. Having said that, I feel the detail is better on Aventine kit, and also - if you'd ever need to field more that one - Aventine range lets you put together several different elephants, compared to Warlords one pose with one set of crewmen. As a matter of fact, I replaced the crew on my second Warlord elephant with Aventine set ;)
I'll try to link some comparison pictures...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19WV1WeIDH5xoljiX1uWcdnR9GF880nk_/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19R38tjFlGIIoMOgJh1UVxm6m6DeIwthb/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19PQdaWcHrAjgrIk1FQMEHRpe__Y5ejV_/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19LAgNdoDp68qMrMS2PQNmrYM1e6ffWqG/view?usp=drivesdk
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 06:14:59 PM by Matheo »

Offline mithril

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2020, 09:47:47 PM »
Matheo, that's very helpful, thanks!
currently only planning one, but my current plan only extends to the initial tourney ready 2300pts.  later on i might add more. but by then i hope to have redeveloped my modelling and painting skills a bit (been over a decade since i did anything not in 6mm scale), but i never was very good with using greenstuff. and a big visual centerpeice like an elephant probably isn't the best place to start learning. :)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 06:43:20 AM by mithril »

Online wmyers

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2020, 06:24:54 AM »
I’m not good with green stuff, either. Professional sculptors constantly relate how it’s like trying to sculpt with gum...

There are far easier products.  Like Squadron or Tamiya putty. 


Offline mithril

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2020, 09:21:09 AM »
something tells me that my lack of sculpting skill would get me an ugly mess no matter what putty i use.

i've got a textured roller and some brown stuff on the way for decorative basing purposes, so i'm sure i'll get a chance to experiment some.

Offline markw

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2020, 09:50:31 AM »
The Warlord Nellie is rather chunky compared to the Aventine Elephant. I am also looking at the Agema offering. Has anyone built/painted one?

Offline Arrigo

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2020, 03:04:06 PM »
There's so many holes in the sources and presumption of the behalf of older researchers. Period accounts mention the search for the largest elephants.
Africa is just a mass of trade routes. It's just not realistic to assume that 'word' of the Blokes Up North with the big cheque books are  on the look out for big elephants.
Even if you skip a little further forward or indeed backwards and you have both Egypt and Rome buying in big game from the heart of Africa.
Or simply look North You've items of of North African origin in the archeological record of  England and France in the same period.
I prefer the simple and honest approach to trade in the ancient world and pre history .If there's people then there's contact and if there's contact then there's trade and or conflict.Trade is more preferable to conflict. Because beating to death everyone you meet isn't a long term survival solution.


So if theres a Demand and there's money then there will be a supply. Distance isn't an issue if it was we wouldn't drinking tea and eating chocolate.

There are also some recent researches that point at an Ethiopian/Eritrean sources for the Lagid elephants, and basically debunks Polybius and his description of elephant fight at Raphia. I will try to dug it out again.  We know from Lagid inscriptions they supplied their elephants from the region we now call Eritrea. Recent study points out they are closer in size to the Africans rather than the North Africans supposedly used by Carthage.  Basically as once Professor Dominic Rathbone once said (when he was a young researcher, this points toward my age...) 'La Storia antica e' un gran casino' (in the most comical English accented italian I ever heard in real life...
"Put Grant straight in"

for pretty tanks and troops: http://forwardhq.blogspot.com

Offline Andrew_McGuire

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2020, 03:11:21 PM »
Casino meaning, I'd guess, 'crap shoot'?

Offline Burnin Coal

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2020, 04:06:05 PM »
Casino meaning, I'd guess, 'crap shoot'?

That would do just fine  ;)...the specific definition of ”casino” can vary according to the context in which it is used covering everything from mess, disorder and confusion and more literally bordello  :o

Loving this thread by the way

Offline Andrew_McGuire

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2020, 05:14:00 PM »
My goodness. I was unaware of any meaning beyond that of a purportedly high class gambling establishment, whence I derived my guess at that particular slang usage. Now I'm wondering where the English sense comes from, and how it has avoided the distinctly unsavoury associations of the Italian.

Given that this has arisen during a discussion about war elephants in ancient times, BTW, it's pointless trying to predict what other subjects might come up, or what might be learned, however adventitiously.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 06:06:38 PM by Andrew_McGuire »

Offline Arrigo

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2020, 10:47:21 AM »
Casino also means mess, because those places tend to be quite noisy... incidentally the term was originally used for noble families hunting lodges, where, it appears, the first high class gambling den started in renaissance (away from the prying eyes of tax collectors... and religious authorities...)...

But Professor Rathbone was referring to the often contradictory sources, perceived and assumed truth, and general confusing state of our understanding... that is basically a mess. Raphia is a case study on that. We have a supposed authoritative source, Polybius. Fine... but Polybius is not contemporary to the battle, and it is also a tad fragmentary. also while he should have been familiar with north African forest elephants and Indian elephants, he probably never saw an Ethiopian one.

Also one thin that bugger me... we have reasonable artistic evidence of Hellenistic elephant armors, so I am fine with them (no the 1st Corps elephants are not fantasy... sorry for that...) but bloody hell... not even a single piece survived! Call it really really selective fate...

Offline Andrew_McGuire

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2020, 04:15:54 PM »
Interesting. My knowledge if Italian is negligible, but I'm going to make a semi-educated guess, with the benefit of your reference to a hunting lodge,  that the literal meaning of casino is 'little house' (diminutive of casa, albeit with an apparent change of gender). Fairly obvious in retrospect, of course, but I would never have suspected the association with mess and disorder, let alone brothels, but then I've never visited an Italian one.

Clearly I'm not up to date with the scholarship on war elephants, and even my knowledge of Polybius is second hand at best, so I had better leave further discussion to those who are more versed in the field(s).

Offline mithril

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2020, 01:11:10 AM »
the idea that they were getting their small species of african elephants makes a lot of sense to me. you'd pretty much have to go through either egypt or ethiopia anyway, since trying to bring elephants across the saharan trade routes would be a nightmare. i have no trouble believing they were a different species than the big Bush elephants though. perhaps the 'North African' elephant and the extant Forest Elephant of West Africa were related species. or even the same species and the geographic range spread farther east and north in ancient times than today.

unless we can find actual remains it'll stay purely speculation though.

Offline Arrigo

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2020, 11:22:30 AM »
Found the article...

https://research.ncl.ac.uk/histos/documents/2016AA08SchneiderAgainontheElephantsofRaphia.pdf

It debunks the idea the Lagid Africans were smaller....  as

Quote
perhaps the 'North African' elephant and the extant Forest Elephant of West Africa were related species. or even the same species and the geographic range spread farther east and north in ancient times than today.

We are talking of East African elephants here (Ethiopia is on the east of africa... remember... Italian EAST Africa!), and they are Savannah Elephants (like the big ones we are used to see in TV)  and ore no relation (based on DNA studies) to the extinct Forest Elephants used by Carthage.

Also looks at: 'Elephants at Raphia: Reinterpreting Polybius 5.84-5' on JSTOR  for another debate.


Offline Jjonas

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2020, 09:15:06 PM »
anyone willing to chime in about the following?
Gripping Beast's polemarch successor range (this is the one i'm not sure if they are supposed to be african or indian)

  The Polemarch range covers Hellenistic Asian elephants:
  Model in center is Polemarch, far left Relic, next Aventine, behind Polemarch Relic African.

    http://www.ancientbattles.com/elephantarchia/Raphia_2017_MSF_001.jpg

Aventine miniatures. (though they don't have the armored indian elephant bodies for sale anymore?)

  The Aventine range is quite extensive and they just released a brilliant Seleucid armored elephant (which I have yet to complete, but it is excellent).


and of course the warlord games kit.

   I do not have the Warlord kit. It looks impossible to me (size and massive armor- like carrying a car on its noggin)- therefore it may be perfect for fantasy use.
Jeff J

Online Aventine

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Re: war elephant comparisons and suggestions?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2020, 10:37:02 PM »
Armoured  Indian elephant bodies back in stock.

The Armoured African ELA03 should be back up very soon, just awaiting stock.

https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/53_33_146

Cheers
Keith
Aventine Miniatures