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Author Topic: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)  (Read 1792 times)

Offline wmyers

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 89
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2020, 08:05:29 PM »
I'm planning a project involving 7 Midianite Arabs (well, 7 camels carrying 13 men between them) and 7 Israelite tribal militia to oppose them. I'll be using a "desert fortress" set up on a very small table area (22" x 30"). Later on I plan to add Philistines and Syrians to the mix.

Follow my blog at https://biblehammer.blogspot.com/ if you want to keep track of my project.  :)

I checked out your blog.  I like the use of the blue on your figures! 

I think this is an era that is often overlooked but is fascinating! 

Starting with a small number of figures is also a really good idea to get a feel for the rules. 

Using the Warhammer rules (Mordheim, in this case) is a very easy step to get into the larger battles using Warhammer Ancient Battles.

I think, as well, you can form your own house rules, as you see fit and not worry too much on how other authors would have done it. 

Oh, I did ask Rob Broom on the War and Conquest (WAC) Facebook page about the camel archers and there is not anything really written to take into account that.

Offline tikitang

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 104
    • Biblehammer
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2020, 08:36:05 PM »
Thanks to you both. I asked Rob too, but he wasn't interested in answering the question, only in trying to sell me War and Conquest, which is understandable.  :)

I did send an email to Nigel Stillman via the Perry Twins about the camel archers, but haven't heard anything back.

I also got in touch with several other WAB authors, and the general consensus seemed to be that they ought to fire two shots, though there was some doubt if they should fire more than one, as they are classed as Light Cavalry (which normally have one rider) and there is no specific rule about firing twice on the profile.

I am inclined to go with two, because surely every model on the table carrying a bow ought to get a chance to fire it during the Shooting phase?

Offline Jjonas

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 30
  • Ancient Modeler
    • Ancient Hellenistic Battles mostly
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2020, 09:02:25 PM »
After further review, WAB 1, and 1.5 are no help.  Chariot Wars never had a full erratum.
One place to go is WAB 2, the Lydian list expressly states "counts as two shots" for the camels.

Since the Camelry are given the two wound anomaly (rare in rankers in WAB), I would have to give in that they get two shots. If a wound has been taken then one shot should be removed for that model. (Note that a leader model would get "an extra attack dice" or 3 attacks - not 4, and would have the same missile shots (2 in this rare case) as rank and file).
Jeff J

Offline tikitang

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    • Biblehammer
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2020, 10:56:21 PM »
Thanks, Jeff. Just had a look at Armies of Antiquity 2.0 and saw the Arab Camelry from the Lydian list -- that totally confirms it. Two shots it is.

Offline wmyers

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 89
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2020, 05:44:12 AM »
I also think they should get one shot when fleeing.  As long as there are still 2 riders.

Offline tikitang

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    • Biblehammer
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2020, 07:18:22 AM »
What perplexes me about the camel riders from the AoA 2.0 list is that they appear to cost 25 points, as opposed to 16 in CW. Furthermore, they only have one attack!

Offline Tim Haslam

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2020, 01:24:52 PM »
All points values were different in V2.
Probably to keep it separate from V1 and supplements.
V2 actually had a point formula, and was insular with just the AoA2 army lists compatible.

Earlier versions of WAB usually had 2000pt armies, as I recall V2 meant you needed 2500-3000 for the same amount of figures.

If you just want chariot wars skirmishes Iíd recommend the original supplement, not perfect agreed, but a worthy attempt.
Nigel Stillman is a highly regarded historian.
Donít forget it was one of the first books released for WAB1, a bit of a trail blazer.

Offline tikitang

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    • Biblehammer
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2020, 01:31:04 PM »
Thanks for that! Yes, I think I'll just stick with the point values I recognise from version 1.0 and the CW supplement.  :)

Offline seldon

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 406
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2020, 04:50:11 PM »
All points values were different in V2.
Probably to keep it separate from V1 and supplements.
V2 actually had a point formula, and was insular with just the AoA2 army lists compatible.

...

I did not know that !!!... NOW I NEED to get a WAB2 ...  curse you !!

For a long time I though I had it only to realize that I only had 1.5 ....  having the point formula out was a smart idea...

As my CLASH armies grow I'm getting to the point where I'll be able to try War & Conquest, which pretty much evolved from WAB...

( how I miss the WAB army books )

Offline Jjonas

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  • Posts: 30
  • Ancient Modeler
    • Ancient Hellenistic Battles mostly
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2020, 11:41:11 PM »
Donít forget it was one of the first books released for WAB1, a bit of a trail blazer.

This is very true. The first book "Chariot Wars" was a trail blazer and this author used it to guide his work- an all list (info embedded) manifest (sadly, in hindsight, that book is not what came out). The leaders of the pack did not seem interested in errata for tournaments, since reasonable players could ferret it out for themselves. Then "Fall of the West" came out and changed the supplement process- or warped it. In the final reckoning, I like Chariot Wars it was my model for the perfect WAB supplement, and still is. I wish they had supported it with obvious errata and explanations such as simple ones we are dealing with here. But this "two shot archer camel" question kind of belies why WAB is a zombie game, dead but sometimes still scratching at the door.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 11:43:46 PM by Jjonas »

Offline guitarheroandy

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    • Andy's Wargaming Blog
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2020, 02:20:25 PM »
I did not know that !!!... NOW I NEED to get a WAB2 ...  curse you !!

For a long time I though I had it only to realize that I only had 1.5 ....  having the point formula out was a smart idea...

As my CLASH armies grow I'm getting to the point where I'll be able to try War & Conquest, which pretty much evolved from WAB...

( how I miss the WAB army books )

WAB 2 is alright, but it rewrote a lot of how warband armies work and as a result you couldn't always use the old supplements with it very well. I personally love Age of Arthur and El Cid supplements... Such fun! The Hannibal supplement had some great ideas for the manipular legion but you needed a lot of models to make it work properly and look good (at least 3000pts really) and a lot of players simply ignored the historical formations and used the troops in ways designed to win tournament battles (I believe putting triarii on the wings and having no cavalry was a favourite Republican Roman tournament tactic, if memory serves me right.)

War & Conquest is alright. I wrote some Arthurian lists for Rob a few years back which I think still get used in WaC circles today, but I got a bit disillusioned with it as I began to get the same results in games pitting certain armies against certain other armies, which in my view isn't a good thing - suggests an imbalance somewhere if certain types of army beat certain other types all the while - and I'd used Rob's points formulae to the letter with all my lists too... 

Offline seldon

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 406
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2020, 03:05:57 PM »
That is very interesting..

I love all the WAB books.. they are just so much fun just to read them.. I think I have all of them... I wish they had released Rise of Rome and Samurais

I do need to find 2.0 now, just out of curiosity..

I saw that they look to be reviving W&C, even maybe thinking of some Fantasy, that would be great...

I understand what you mentioned, to fix those issues you need to keep the rules alive and benefit from playtesting and adjust...  it is hard with the large figure count required with those rules...  Still fun if you work to do a balanced scenario instead of competitive gaming...

( this is a fun an education thread :) , thank you OP )
Francisco

Offline tikitang

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 104
    • Biblehammer
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2020, 04:04:47 PM »

( this is a fun an education thread :) , thank you OP )
Francisco

You're welcome; I never thought a simple question about camel archers would be such a popular topic!  lol

Offline wmyers

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 89
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2020, 05:13:50 PM »
Itís also got me more interested in Biblical era and I donít have a lot in that period. Just some Egyptians really.

Using Mordheim rules, along with the Chariot Wars supplement I would not have to buy many. (Or if I used my 20mm, I would not have to buy anything!)

Offline tikitang

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 104
    • Biblehammer
Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2020, 06:35:49 PM »
Itís also got me more interested in Biblical era

Then my work here is done!  8)