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Author Topic: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa  (Read 1290 times)

Offline italwars

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advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« on: January 23, 2020, 12:00:21 AM »
Hello
as titled said i ask please an expert help to identify the only wargame item that i still need to complete my 20mm miniature's armies for gaming some scenarios setted in my favourite front (side show) of WW2..the war in Italian East Africa....i have not only Italians and native troops but also South Africans (including Marmon Herrington Armred Cars), Ethiopian irregulars, Sudan Defence Force ecc....what i was unsuccesfully hunting from years seem to have been, at least,  issued in 3 D and in 1:72 my very scale...i'm referring to the South African Vickers Light Tank...very few and contradictory infos on line and generic info, just "light tanks" mentioned even in Official History....but probably the machine used by SADF was the Vickers MKII Light Tank..i don't know wich pattern or model...could you confirm me if the one sold by this guy on ebay could be what i was looking for? ...the description said "North Africa" and "used by Australian in East Africa" but no Australians fought in East Africa..and also "used in Interwar period"..maybe in NWF?
thanks in advance for you appreciated comments

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-72-scale-British-Light-Tank-Mk-IIA-World-War-2-Northern-Africa-3D-print/133256069947?hash=item1f06ae433b:g:tWMAAOSwt35d4TYG
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM by italwars »

Offline Skyven

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2020, 12:49:16 AM »
This is from the official SA war record:
   
EAST AFRICAN AND ABYSSINIAN CAMPAIGNS by NEIL ORPEN

Hope it helps.

Offline italwars

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2020, 11:36:20 AM »
many thanks for your care Skyven ..
the pict seem very similar to the 3D model

Offline Jemima Fawr

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2020, 04:50:47 PM »
That's a Vickers Light Tank Mk III (also known as a 'Dutchman', as they were originally built for the Dutch East Indies Army).  They also used some Mk IIa and Mk IV Light Tanks, but I don't know how many of what type or if they were all used at the same time.
Suffering from insomnia?  Too much excitement in your life?  Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog might be just the solution you've been looking for: www.jemimafawr.co.uk

Offline Poiter50

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2020, 01:40:59 AM »
I thought the Dutchman was a Mk IV with a slightly different turret for the KNIL version, most of which became training vehicles in the UK? I think the SADF armoured forces used Mk II & III Light tanks which had been shipped to South Africa from the UK and formed a squadron in East Africa. Black Berets Vol I focuses mostly on the Armoured Cars used in that theatre but I believe there is mention of them using captured Italian tanks (perhaps M11/39s?) to supplement their Armoured force in a similar manner to the Aussies after Bardia.

That's a Vickers Light Tank Mk III (also known as a 'Dutchman', as they were originally built for the Dutch East Indies Army).  They also used some Mk IIa and Mk IV Light Tanks, but I don't know how many of what type or if they were all used at the same time.
Cheers,
Poiter50

Offline jeffreythancock

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2020, 02:09:36 AM »
And I thought SA used an Indian version of the Mk II, including some with a fixed turret.  3D printed models are the only choice I've seen for an "accurate" model.  I use the Mk VI as a poor stand in for 15mm, with some Exacto modifications.

Offline Hang Tuah

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2020, 03:14:48 AM »
italwars, would the "VICKERS-CARDON-LOYD 1936 PATTERN LIGHT TANK" from Frontline Wargaming work? There's no picture on the website but I know Tim to be responsive on Facebook.

Offline carlos marighela

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2020, 08:18:20 AM »
Didn’t Raventhorpe or Milicast produce a Mk II? It’s been a long while since I played with 1/72 tanks but if my memory serves one or both of them did.

Anyway here’s another pic of the item in question plus a link to the Sith Ifrican history.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/SouthAfrica/EAfrica/index.html#contents

Em dezembro de '81
Botou os ingleses na roda
3 a 0 no Liverpool
Ficou marcado na história
E no Rio não tem outro igual
Só o Flamengo é campeão mundial
E agora seu povo
Pede o mundo de novo

Offline italwars

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2020, 01:24:09 PM »
Many thanks Carlos...i already have the paper book that you linked..but it's quite generic about accurate technical data of the SA equipment...and even worst about the Italian one..they even said that we were equiped with AB40 Armoured Cars and Antitank guns..obviuosly such performing  equipment, for 1940, never reached  Africa Orientale Italiana..
on the other hand the pict that you posted is nice and usefull..i read the evidence that SA lights tanks were transported up to the front line , and contrary to the more useful Marmon Herrington Armoured Cars, by adapted or purpously requisitioned big lorries..some of them being succesfully ambushed by Somalian Dubat irregulars (the so called "black bersaglieri" ) hidden in the bush, sniping from top of trees  and  trowing molotov cocktails and grenades  as soon as the tank company's lorried convoy  had  crossed the Juba River... As concern Raventhorpe i already thought about ordering their Light Tank MK II that was issued  together with late North West Frontier tribesmen...unfortunatly, from my past experience, Raventhorpe is the most elusive manufacture in UK..no web site no way to get in touch with them..i'm trying to order again some of their very useful items from years
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 01:34:48 PM by italwars »

Offline italwars

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2020, 01:54:42 PM »
I thought the Dutchman was a Mk IV with a slightly different turret for the KNIL version, most of which became training vehicles in the UK? I think the SADF armoured forces used Mk II & III Light tanks which had been shipped to South Africa from the UK and formed a squadron in East Africa. Black Berets Vol I focuses mostly on the Armoured Cars used in that theatre but I believe there is mention of them using captured Italian tanks (perhaps M11/39s?) to supplement their Armoured force in a similar manner to the Aussies after Bardia.
Thanks for your info..from what i read, from a univesity thesis about SA Armour in East Africa and from the very good and ispirational for wargames book by J A. Brown "The War of a undred Days" , no mention is made about the model of SA tanks actually used ..the majority of actions were carried out by armoured cars..Italian armour was quite powerful considering the secondary front and roughness of the terrain but they were badly led and uncoordinated...majority of their empoyment was in fixed defensive position or totaly isolated attacks against already advancing Imperial/SADF infantry...the South African historians admitted that in the few occasions the Italians dared to employ their armour Vs allied armour the last one were totally outgunned... the South African armoured cars were at ease,, outflanking Italian positions, in the bare tracks and among open lands of Somalia while, once reached former Ethiopian Empire rough highlands and Eritrea passes a timid empoyment of tracked armour was unsuccesfully attempted only to be repulsed by die hard best units of more reliable Eritrean Askaris  and local Black Shirts equipped with light weapons and , at best, 65mm mountain pieces...i only read mention of Italian equipment abandoned by their owners and inspected by Allies in East Africa but not used in action...M11/39 was an awkward if not absurdly conceived tank.

Offline Hang Tuah

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2020, 05:24:00 AM »
Quote
As concern Raventhorpe i already thought about ordering their Light Tank MK II that was issued  together with late North West Frontier tribesmen...unfortunatly, from my past experience, Raventhorpe is the most elusive manufacture in UK..no web site no way to get in touch with them..i'm trying to order again some of their very useful items from years

Facebook is the best way to get in touch with Raventhorpe. He's very active there: https://www.facebook.com/groups/948846058521632/


Offline italwars

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Re: advice for a South African tank WW2 East Africa
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2020, 01:58:32 PM »
Thanks for your suggestion Hang....i've just see it but it seems to be a "closed" site and there is no email adress or any direction..practically there is nothing... ,...obviously i do not use FB neither i can stand  even the idea of his  very existence..but for what i understood you must have a FB page and then ask to them to become their "friend" and then to be accepted and then to post images of your dog and what you had for breakfast...which is an absurdity if not a ridiculous invasive procedure for a business venture...sorry that they not want to sell anymore their nice products