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Author Topic: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?  (Read 2996 times)

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« on: February 08, 2020, 01:52:10 PM »
One advantage of focusing our gameplay at home is reducing the friction on proxy models and using house rules. But what house rules should we be using?

My wife and I are still novices with the SBG and Battle Companies rules but a couple things have underwhelmed us... like the effectiveness of archers, or lack there of, and weapon/equipment choices for units.

One idea I like is to add volley plunging fire to archer units. Basically the idea is to simulate the ability to use archers in indirect fire mode. The unit treats it’s combined fire hail of arrows the same as a siege engine, using either the siege target or battlefield target To Hit procedure ie normal or scatter.  And perhaps increased maximum range balanced by a minimum range as well. This means that units get a bit more range and poor accuracy units can balance their accuracy by sheer numbers. In the way rolls would be based on overhead cover, and this way archers could shoot from behind friendly troops that are not in base to base contact. The idea needs some play testing for balance but what do you think? Too over powered?

Would it be balanced enough by the bow limit?

What do you think of the bow limit rule in general? It feels a bit arbitrary to me and bows hardly seem so overpowered generally as to require it.

I notice in the weapons list there is a slingshot but no slings. I believe there is a reference to Elves having slings in the Fall of Gondolin. Surely they would still exist following that.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Slings

But is there ever a mention of slingshots? Is that just a Peter Jackson invention?

What stats would you give for slings in game if you decided to include them? What weapon are they most equivalent to? A shortbow?

One of the scenarios in the new Rohan expansion book allows throwing spears to be used as normal spears if not thrown. This appears to only apply in this scenario but I see no reason not to change that for all games.... but then if you do... should all spear units be allowed to throw their spears? Too overpowered? This seems a bit of blurring between spears and javelins.

Haradrim do not get shields. That seems foolish and is awkward with my proxy plans. My wife and I agreed to allow them to get shields for a point each.

Black Numenoreans getting spears or crossbows... too overpowered? And yes I realize crossbows in Tolkien’s Arda during the Third Age is already a tough sell.

All that said, considering we are novices, I am sure we have barely scratched the surface. What do you all think given your experience? What house rules do you use to better your battles?
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Offline Commander Carnage

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2020, 08:13:34 PM »
MESBG has a fairly large and very loyal following. Most of the things you have outlined in your post regarding bows are there because of tournament play. I say change what you want and try it out for yourself. The only change you mentioned that looks like an issue would be throwing spears. Throwing weapons are actually very good because they use the strength of the thrower and you can move and throw them.
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Offline Belgian

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2020, 08:31:01 PM »
My favorite rules but note that I still use the big blue book. Think that archers are quite good in the game not super effective but still lethal especially elves against lightly armoured miniatures such goblins.

Not sure if you know that there are volley rules integrated in the rules. In which groups of archers in base contact can volley at larger distances and indirect. Very useful when fielding masses or goblins against less numerous adversaries or powerful heroes.

Although we don't play tournaments we often use the 1/3 rule as it balances the armies especially when fighting with no set objectives. The game otherwise turns in a slow battle with archers retreating and shooting at the enemy with the lower amount of archers.

Regarding the spears we only use those rules with Rohan as those look like throwing spears. Looking at the manner of fighting and spear type the Gondorian spears look less likely to be throwing spears.
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Offline mithril

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2020, 09:34:33 PM »
I notice in the weapons list there is a slingshot but no slings. I believe there is a reference to Elves having slings in the Fall of Gondolin. Surely they would still exist following that.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Slings

But is there ever a mention of slingshots? Is that just a Peter Jackson invention?
the use of the slingshot in the hobbit is very much a Jackson addition. and one that makes little sense. after all, the slingshot didn't exist until somewhere around 1860, and can't have existed prior to the development of vulcanized rubber in 1839. the one we see Ori use in the films is physically impossible since the twine it is using does not have any elastic properties. and the Y-handle does not have any torsion related bending going on (the way you might if it were using mechanics like a catapult or bow)

the type of slings which would be avaialble with the technology of middle earth would be standard Sling, little more than a pouch inbetween two lengths of rope that makes a thrown stone longer ranged and more lethal, or Slingstaffs, which is basically the above attached to a long pole so you can get even more leverage on the throw.

skilled users of a sling could reach ranges in excess of a selfbow (a normal sling could do upwards of 400 metres (1,300 ft)), and do a lot of damage to unarmored targets, but their armor penetration was weak compared to arrows. normally slingstaffs were used with heavier projectiles, so in practice they had similar ranges but hit harder.

for most of history slingers used regular stones, with stones taken from riverbeds being preferred for their smooth shape (makes for better aerodynamics and better accuracy). when used in systematic warfare though most cultures with the means made 'bullets', small round projectiles of lead. these smaller projectiles had similar weight as stones, but hit harder. the smaller size meant the slinger could carry more shots as well.

Slings were a preferred weapon for many cultures in defense against a siege, since you could stockpile a lot of projectiles, and thus didn't have to husband your shots as much as you would arrows.



« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 09:51:05 PM by mithril »

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2020, 09:58:31 PM »
Thanks for the replies folks, with over 80 viewings and no replies I was beginning to wonder if I had posted something inappropriate.

My wife and I are very much more interested in thematic narrative  game play than competitive tournament game play. Balancing often seems rather  to me and sometimes I wonder how much unit equipment choices are based on what minis have been cast rather than actual game balance.

Rohan using throwing spears as melee spears is part of the Theodred’s legendary legion in the new Rohan book. I suspect it is to give the more infantry reliant army spear support. If a spear is thrown it can not then in the same turn be used to support in melee.

I was unaware of volley fire archery in the rules.... a quick Google search indicates it was on page 45 of the LOTR SBG rulebook but the only volley fire rule I can find in the Middle Earth SBG rulebook is for siege engines. Was it taken out?

The risk of a game turning into protracted archery duels is a fair point. When I said we were underwhelmed I meant by the ranges and unpredictability of the archery effectiveness. We have watched more games played on YouTube than played them ourselves but that is how it has come across to us so far.

An idea I had today that I ran by my wife was to allow a model in a Battle Companies game to spend a turn searching an enemy casualty for carried equipment to loot. Most games appear too short and too busy for this to happen often because you can rarely afford to have a character not moving or fighting.

I am also confused by some of the equipment. War Drums in equipment seem to act like normal War Drum (increased movement) but Rallying Horns (reinforcement benefits) do not act as War Horns (improved courage) and Company Standards (improved courage) do not act as Banners (die reroll). Is that intentional? Is there a way a Battle Company could have a Banner and a Company Standard if you only have the Battle Company on the field or would you need to have your Battle Company as part of a larger normal SBG battle?

Thanks for the info on slings... I suppose we may end up with some slingers in our games at some point with the same stats as a bow, ie 24“ and strength 2. SBG is not really very crunchy on things like ammunition limits and armor penetration.

Offline CommanderBaker

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2020, 01:10:52 PM »
Volley fire was removed from archers in the most recent addition. It was left in for siege weapons. GW to their credit spent a lot of time and effort in the latest release. They brought together the hobbit and lotr armies, balanced them much better, and changed many units and heroes for the better. However some things were lost and one of those was the effectiveness of archery. Many of the changes were brought in for more matched/tournament play. Even the most recent faq has been created with less cheese as the theme. which is all well and good for people who like to play tournaments. or at events with matched games.     
The differences in equipment that you stated from battle companies are a result of the nature of play in battle companies. They are meant to be more thematic and given the absence of named heroes, were reworked to better fir the scale and intent of the game. The Rallying horn does just that. It rallies allies to your cause, be it getting them on the table sooner or helping you get reinforcement after a battle. The scroll of courage is like a commander reading out a pre battle speech, granting his comrades courage. The nature of play is that these figures change and get better over time. having more equipment with often less potent rules than their standard game variants allows for more progression.     
Its important to remember that Battle companies is basically an expansion that allows for narrative campaign play and isnt perfectly balanced.
Bow limits exist in the base game for two reasons balance and theme. some armies are shown (in the movies) to be more or less bow heavy. Remember that GW's license was for the movies first, so items from the movies were created first and other things then added to bridge some gaps are made in the spirit of the movies. I believe the looks and equipment of the GW Khandish line are based on early New Line Cinema concept art.         
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 01:15:29 PM by CommanderBaker »

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2020, 01:57:23 PM »
I need to read the FAQ.

Whilst a novice at SBG, years ago I was an enthusiastic 40k gamer, going back to Rogue Trader in the late 80‘s. As time went by I saw the game evolve to be more streamlined and tournament focused. That caused the game to lose my interest. I tried to get into WHFB but finding others interested in it was challenging to say the least. I left the hobby long before AOS or SBG came out.

So I am playing catch up.

My wife has no tabletop experience but she has pen and paper RPG experience so Battle Companies seemed a good way to gradually introduce her to the bigger stanard SBG games over time. The introduction scenarios in the Pelennor Fields box just did not grab her enthusiasm. She preferred watching Zorpazorp on YouTube playing a Battle Companies campaign.

Which is where we are today as I furiously try to paint all the bits we need for an immersive narrative Battle Companies campaign.... and rules questions come up. My wife likes real archery so she has some expectations of archery in games. And she likes Elves. So she likes to see effective archery on the table.

She likes the aesthetics of the Jackson movies more than I do so a lot of what I paint for her is influenced by that. That and my money saving EBay hunting.


Offline mithril

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2020, 08:10:15 PM »
if you have mostly RPG experiance, i'd suggest grabbing the old "journeybooks" for fellowship of the ring, two towers, and return of the king. those have a ton of scenarios based on the films and especialyl the book that are more narrative in scope. the fellowship book especially is a good one because it has a lot of smaller size scenarios, like the hobbits escaping the black rider and getting to bucklebury ferry, or fighting the wraiths on the barrow downs, or holding off the wargs on the way to Moria. most of these scenarios also include variants for use outside the film/book narrative campaign, suggesting alternate forces instead of the named characters. (for example the shelobs lair scenario in return of the king could be played with 100pts of orcs instead of frodo and Sam)

they also have sections on terrain making and such to create the boards you need for those scenarios, which would give you a pretty good stock of terrain for later games in your own original campaigns.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 08:17:15 PM by mithril »

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2020, 08:29:50 PM »
Ah those do indeed sound tasty, I will have to add those to my eBay hunting list.

Offline Whitwort Stormbringer

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2020, 03:58:21 PM »
In small skirmishes I also find most archers somewhat underwhelming. Not everyone will agree with these changes, but personally I find that bumping bows to strength 3 and/or improving orcs' and goblins' shooting to 4+ can make a world of difference.

I don't feel like this diminishes elves' superiority too much, since IMO their big benefit is 3+ shooting, but one could then do something like making their "in the way" rolls a 5+ instead of 4+ or something if you felt it was needed.

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2020, 10:01:58 PM »
Thanks for the advice, we will try play testing those suggestions. I would not have thought to adjust “in the way“ rolls but that is an interesting idea.

Offline Coenus Scaldingus

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2020, 08:48:01 AM »
In small skirmishes I also find most archers somewhat underwhelming. Not everyone will agree with these changes, but personally I find that bumping bows to strength 3 and/or improving orcs' and goblins' shooting to 4+ can make a world of difference.

I don't feel like this diminishes elves' superiority too much, since IMO their big benefit is 3+ shooting, but one could then do something like making their "in the way" rolls a 5+ instead of 4+ or something if you felt it was needed.
The thing with archery in smaller games is just that's it can be very.. well, hit or miss. When you have 50 figures per side and a third of those are archers, you're fairly consistently getting the average number of hits and wounds through. In Battle Companies, you may get no results before the models get engaged in melee, but in other cases you may kill 2 or even 3 out of the enemy 7 figures, which is comparatively massive.

Archery in SBG is meant to be more Dark Ages than Agincourt, so to speak. Weaken the enemy a bit with missiles before getting into close combat, and only few forces will rely on it to carry the day entirely. One issue it that those forces that do are terribly boring to play against, as it's often a case of hard counters: models with Blinding Light or the Shadowlord's ability cancel the enemy shootin - when you have those, they can do little; without those, you have little you can do. One of the main reasons the original volley fire rules were removed was I think because of just that: two blocks of archers exhanging arrows from across the board isn't particularly exciting, while being only on the receiving end of first those, and then several turns of direct shooting while you walk towards them and they slowly retreat (this was before the move-and-shoot penalty) doesn't make for much of a game either. Same for mounted archers, which can retreat about as quickly as infantry can try to catch up with them. This being a tough fight may be historically accurate, but again, not a great gameplay experience!

A big factor in archery's apparent power or lack therof would however be the forces you use. If you have models with S2 archery and your opponent's list contains D5 or higher, you'll feel that little gets done; the same with S3 against D6+. Witness Haradrim fighting Hobbits, or Goblin Town versus Wood Elves, however, and things get very bloody very quickly. But if you get some lucky dice, that third of your army with bows could occasionally take out a near-equal chunk of the enemy force in a single turn...

Another thing is of course that in this game, most archers aren't bad in melee either. You add a lot of versatility by just paying 1 extra point (for most models). Lack of a shield defence buff is not too relevan if the models are supporting with a spear (a popular choice) or incapable of having a shield anyway (Harad, Wood Elves), so you're getting your value out of those bows if you just kill 1-2 models with every 10 archers.
~Ad finem temporum~

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2020, 08:34:18 PM »
I am not a statistical mathematics theory expert but yeah, that makes sense in regards to scale of use. Thankfully though my wife and I are keen on narrative rather than balanced competition. And the historical wargamer in me is fine with dealing with a Roman-Parthian experience. But I am used to crunchier systems. D6 makes for pretty big chunks of random feeling statistics. Less crunch however suits the more streamlined game tastes of my wife.

Offline Abbner Home

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2020, 03:24:14 PM »
Volley fire was removed from the newer editions, much to my chagrin. IIR it was along the lines of you had to have 10 archers minimum shooting, they had longer range, hit only on a six, and players alternated the model hit within a radius of the target model. But please do not quote me on this. Just giving you the flavor so you can decide if the exact rules are worth seeking.

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Middle Earth SBG House rules recommendations?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2020, 07:50:34 PM »
Thanks, I have found the rule quoted online.

We are going to try playtesting it in our games as both my wife and I like the sound of it. Not sure about requiring 10 participants though. We will experiment with it.

One nice thing with just us playing, it is relatively easy to agree on house rules.