Revolutionary wars French

[WillieB]

Finally started my 'new' project for Sharp Practice.
Will be doing the early period ( 1st Coalition) when the white regulation uniform was still worn. Now, Eureka makes a wonderful range of these figures with both regulation and ragged versions of the uniforms.
 So now I'm wondering would a 'ragged' white (Ancien Regime) uniform be acceptable or should I keep these for Les Blues?

[italwars]

i do not think so...i think that the regulars of the professional "blancs" were quite proud of their difference with the volunteers, their officers were professionals and they fought, as at Valmy, for the Nation, for the Roi Citoyen  (even after Varennes flight in 1791 and at least untill april 1792)  , against foreign ennemies  and not for the Revolution ..so probably the majority must bee in immaculate "Ancien Régime " white uniform as seen in many paintings or plates..on the other hand you can paint or choose to represent some  few volunteers (bleus) with acquired pieces of the white uniform including tarleton type crested helmets ..even if ragged

[WillieB]

 Thank you! That's what initially thought as well. I'll keep the Blancs immaculately dressed and the Bleus ragged.
Another question If I may?  Would  4 grenadiers in a 24 man unit seems appropriate?

[has.been]

Have a look at Trent Miniatures, they do some very nice Revolutionary war figures.
Take a shufti at their various civilians too. Civilian Irish or Welsh  might be of use.

[WillieB]

Oh Yes, I've got most of the Trent Miniatures as well. They are a bit taller than the Eureka ones but still do- able. Emperor Toads is also starting a new range and these figures match Eureka perfectly.

[italwars]

Thank you! That's what initially thought as well. I'll keep the Blancs immaculately dressed and the Bleus ragged.
Another question If I may?  Would  4 grenadiers in a 24 man unit seems appropriate?

Willie ...certainly an interesting subject the early French Revolutionaries Armies but you'll find  contradictory and quickly changing infos depending on sources and period...anyway me too i studied this period for a few scenario projects ..i do not know Sharp Practice but i read that's is a sort of  "large skirmish game"..as i also played French Rev Wars (above all Vendée and anti insurection in Italy) in 28mm i opted for a similar approach to the game..in my case a modified version of The Sword And The Flame which could also be considered as a large skirmish rule set or, in other  cases, i'll opt for a Featherstonian's kind of generic Old School rule systhem...the scale being, in both cases, flexible..counting for fire, casualties ecc..castings and not actual men..with the possibility of scaling historical orders of battle by "bathtubing" them..so probably when you said a 24's casting unit you had a similar approach..my basic units being of similar number...let's take as a basis a 24 minis unit and let's call it a "Battaillon" as i actually did with my minis....probably you would like to use your "immaculate white" French regulars together with  the blue/ragged volunteers..so you'll have to field a Demi Brigade of one battaillon of "Blancs" and two battallions of bleus..historically each battalion should field around 798-800 men divided in 8 companies of fusiliers and 1 of grenadiers wich gives, at a 1:33 scaled 24 casting (i suppose memory from Quarrie  ) so each battalion at a scale of 1/33 should contain 9 companies 3  castings each..one of wich composed of grenadiers..but i hear you say "3 it's an odd number" so   your company of grenadiers (or fusiliers) has to  count 4 figures....in this case you ll probably exceed the 24 figures per unit cause 4 figures per company for a total of 9 company will gives you a total of 36 castings..in my opiniom too much big for a skirmish game in 28mm..maybe you can opt for something similar to what i did...btgs only composed out of the 8 companies of fusiliers as to form a 3 batt. Demi Brigade plus  a brigaded unit composed of the remaining grenadiers from the 3 battallions..or more if you ll be able to field 2 or 3 Demi Brigades..which was historically correct and manageable from a wargamer's point of view..
.i remenber to have read for both Vendée and also for the Italian theaters about  indipendant units composed only of grenadiers..for example , in 1799, the very first French troops that succeeded, after having sustained unexpected heavy losses, to storm the defences of Naples held by the "Lazzaroni" guerillas were composed by enraged grenadiers purposly brigaded in some sort or storm troops.. organised and led by the best French commander  of the time, Géneral Championnet...I ve read about other  examples of brigaded grenadiers also for the campaigns against Austrians, Piedmontese and against Royal Neapolitan regulars...

my suggested composition of a French Army in 28mm at least for an initial project could be a Demi Brigade composed of an old ancien régime "blanc" unit (with recently adopted crested helmet) and two units of ragged "bleus" volontaires, a small unit of  grenadiers..in this case better ragged ones with mixed headgear would be nicer as every volunteer even if being a fusilier tried to pass for a grenadier by sporting épaulettes, sabres and plumes on bicorn, then maybe a small unit of Chasseurs  à pied, even with the old green uniform or with the peculiar  mirliton hat and hussar's white gaiters..those last troops were less motivated but better trained  and clothed than the ragged volontaires cause they formed the Departemental sort of militia recruited in Alps, Pyrénées or other border lands...and if your wallet and brush are still in good spirit i'll add a unit of blue clad  Garde Nationale dressed in immaculate blue uniform and sporting their beautiful non regulation big flags..of course you'll need a demi or full battery (1 or 2 guns at that scale) of professional artillery (not ragged) with civilian not military  drivers  and maybe a 12 casting's unit of Hussars (Perry Plastic) or Chasseurs à Cheval in mirliton crested helmet.


in case you need a full breakdown of a Demi Brigade d'Infanterie up to corporals ecc    contact me, trough PM, writing   your mail  and i'll send you a PDF file  ...if you need any other sources that i could have don't esitate to ask me

[bluewillow]

Looking forward to your progress,

 a great French magazine this month called Soldat covers the uniforms of this period well.

 Lots of opinions about on this, but my two cents, whites in good quality and the Blues looks a little sad, cavalry and artillery quite spiffy!


I have in my painting pile Eureka, and Emperors Toad revolutionary wars miniatures for my collection, hope to get some during this three month shut down.

I have some Trent also but mostly for Vendee/Chouan rebellion, plus I also have some Perry AWI figs for irregulars that I converted.

Cheers
Matt

[duc de limbourg]

Willie,
the 1st Coalition is a very broad period (1792 until 1797) in which the French armies changed a lot (which of course you know). If concentrating on the first two years I am in doubt that the "white"  regulars should be in the perfect "immaculate" uniform. Firstly, a lot (most?) of aristocratic officers went abroad so discipline imho went down. Secondly, the governement mistrusted the white regiments and put more effort in the voluntaires (voluntaires received more pay then the regular/white regiments), this must have effect on the regimental budget and thirdly, the white regiments bore the brunt of the fighting and campaigning of 1792 which took its toll on their uniform. So probably at least a mix of ragged/regular uniforms would be suitable imho.
Regarding the strenght of regiments; this would be between 500 and 800 men per battalion dependant on the new recruits the regiment received. 4 grenadiers per battalion seems too big; as said, maybe a small combined grenadier battallion would be better as this was the practice.
I don't know SP but you should know that the line operated in 3 ranks, the voluntaires in 2 ranks (they had a different regulation in the first years)
 Regarding artillerie , of course there was the professiona line and horse artillerie (the horse arillery by Eureka is great) but to bolster the voluntaires they received regimental artillerie also.
Regarding formations, the Frech army started by separate white regiments and voluntair battalions, later with combined embrigaded white battalion with 2 blue ones although total blue demibrigades existed a long time (there weren't enough white battalions).

greetings
Jan

[italwars]

an interesting post
Willie i reallly do not want to be pedantic but if i was you i would stick to the "immaculate white" regulars as the central battaillon of a Demi Brigade..those 3 battallions of your choosed composition  of 24 minis should have companies of 3 not 4 ..as suggested, together with separated grenadiers unit,    also by Duc De Limbourg ..
Miniature wargame is a compromise and a very funny (should i add childish?) hobby so why, in this particular case, would you give up such an iconic and delightful game opportunity to have a full unit of perfectly painted white minis lead by officer in peruke that look down the other two units composed of bands of ragtags minis ? which is, among other things, the most appropriate simulation from an historical point of view..the white regiments were proud of their traditions and names and their officers, even if they had accepted the Revolution(and consequently saved their heads) were bourgeois or even minor nobles  maybe opportunits but certainly not happy to become citoyens and be considered similar to the populace so they strongly resisted to the reforms and also to the dreadful "Représentants du peuple en mission" . the French Revolution was made by the Bourgeoisie and certainly not for the people..a huge sham as we will see after about a decade...have a look at the following images..the first one, very useful for your purpose, is by Edouard Détaille and depicts exactly how the Demi Brigade were composed...immaculate, disciplined and well and elegantly led regulars clad in old uniform forming side by side with "despicable" volunteers or unwilling conscripts  not even able to form a line..this organisation was called l'"Amalgame"...the following images are from a well researched book of paper soldiers that i purchased  in Brittany years ago  and depicting the regiments involved in the Vendée Campaign ..the last two , same subject,  from an old book published by the top expert artist on the uniforms of Vendée War..as you can see, except from moustaches, all the regular/ancien régime units that operated brigaded with volunteers or Garde Nationale in blue  sport some almost perfect white uniforms..in some case the helmet which was considered uncomfortable and subsequently discarted (but was then picked up by the volunteers) had been substituded by the bicorne that, in any case, was also regular item..

[flags_of_war]

It's a period I've always wanted to game at a small scale. Like the small battle in Hornblower.

I just did a load of new flags for it but I've had to close the website with the ongoing Covid-19 situation.