Austro-Hungarian POW uniforms?

[cuprum]

This topic has been raised before. Here is located the discussion:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=62566.msg772153#msg772153

According to my information, the red units, consisting of captives Hungarians did everything to to designate the national identity and carefully preserved elements of Austrian uniforms. Of course they, with time had to replace worn-out uniforms for standard items Russian uniforms.

[zebra55]

 Hello,

 as to what I mean buy independent pow units (not those "internationalist/pro Bolshevik pows  or reluctant  recruits), I recall an article in Wargames Illustrated about a "back of beyond " game.  Which mentioned in the introduction  that  after the conclusion of peace between the central powers and bolsheviks  and with no means of transport to get them home ,  it was claimed that the German government  secretly  encouraged the pows  to stay in Turkestan  in order to cause trouble for the British.
    I haven't seen anything in the books I have read  which suggested that this occurred, just wondering if German or Russian  sources might have had something concerning any other pows that might have fought against any British  forces.

  Ken.

[cuprum]

I've never seen any documents or other reliable sources to support this version.
Besides, as far as I know, a prerequisite for entry prisoners of war into the Red Army - was adoption of the citizenship of the Soviet Russia.

[Mark Plant]

it was claimed that the German government  secretly  encouraged the pows  to stay in Turkestan  in order to cause trouble for the British.

You see accusations like that in accounts made at the time, but invariably they turn out to be untrue.

Some reflection suggests that they will always turn out to be untrue. The "British in Turkestan" were a tiny unit fighting a sideshow to a sideshow (no matter how interesting to wargamers, it was never very important in the real world). Why would any POW stay fighting, unpaid and unsupported, in a backwater for uncertain aims when they could attempt to go home? (Remember, once WWI finished it was more or less impossible for even the Czechs to keep their well-organised units interested in fighting.)

The Allies in WWI and after had a full-on conspiracy mindset, seeing German shenanigans in every corner (the idea that the Bolshevik revolution was a German plan, and would collapse without their support, was very widespread). We don't need to follow them. Germany could barely keep her own territory in 1918 and 1919 -- worrying about Turkestan was well beyond them.

[Ignatieff]

You see accusations like that in accounts made at the time, but invariably they turn out to be untrue.

Some reflection suggests that they will always turn out to be untrue. The "British in Turkestan" were a tiny unit fighting a sideshow to a sideshow (no matter how interesting to wargamers, it was never very important in the real world).

Whilst I buy your point about about the POWs, I think you'll find that Malleson Force was a bit more important than Hopkirk gave it credit for.  Giles Milton's recent book 'Russian Roulette' had access to a lot more India office papers than were available in the 1980's, and show just how serious the British believed the threat to India was from German/Turkish forces west of the Caspian in 1918.

[Mark Plant]

Whilst I buy your point about about the POWs, I think you'll find that Malleson Force was a bit more important than Hopkirk gave it credit for.  Giles Milton's recent book 'Russian Roulette' had access to a lot more India office papers than were available in the 1980's, and show just how serious the British believed the threat to India was from German/Turkish forces west of the Caspian in 1918.

The key words there are "India Office". They thought the theatre was important, because from an Indian point of view it was as important as India got in WWI. Given that Ashkabad is 1,000 km from British territory -- there was no direct threat to India at any time from that area. The threat was economic and political, not military.

Thessalonika was a sideshow in WWI terms -- yet there were something like 4 British divisions there, plus French. Mallmiss was on the same scale as the Allied occupation of Samoa or Togoland -- neither regarded as particularly crucial to the war effort. Mallmiss was more like an armed reconnaissance to see what was happening than a serious front.

[Ignatieff]

The key words there are "India Office". They thought the theatre was important, because from an Indian point of view it was as important as India got in WWI. Given that Ashkabad is 1,000 km from British territory -- there was no direct threat to India at any time from that area. The threat was economic and political, not military.

Thessalonika was a sideshow in WWI terms -- yet there were something like 4 British divisions there, plus French. Mallmiss was on the same scale as the Allied occupation of Samoa or Togoland -- neither regarded as particularly crucial to the war effort. Mallmiss was more like an armed reconnaissance to see what was happening than a serious front.

You are of course forgetting the railway line from Turkmenbashi (nee Krasnavodsk) to the Afghan frontier. Three days on a bad day.  Let's just agree to disagree.....

[twiglet7]

The wargames Illustrated article was - "battle of Dashakh , October 1918", i think the article was in a 2006 or 08 issue.
  In Miniature wargames 178, March 1998, there is an "operations in Trans-caspia 1918-19" article, the only mention of Autrian  pow,s  has them as part of the bolshevik forces at the battle of Annenkovo, January 1919.

  Pete.

 

[Mark Plant]

http://archive.is/JM2RA is the article in question Twiglet.

[cuprum]

Returning to a previous conversation:



The absence of epaulets, but the presence of national emblems on the caps of Russian soldiers, allows us to date the photo in 1917, maybe the beginning of 1918.
The inscriptions on the funeral wreaths indicate that this is the funeral of the internationalist soldiers who died defending Soviet power... I do not know where these events take place.