7YW Russian complete newbie needs help

[JohnFoA]

Good evening folks

So some friends suggest a wacky Flint and Feather with European overtones type campaign. Well series of games. So I thought, Russians, none of them have Russians.

So what can I do to represent a slightly mad Ducal expedition to/via (read annexation of) Alaska and onto all points east, ending in Quebec.  Yeah it's just a thin excuse to have something Russian in Canada.

Now I know very little about non-repeating firearms and even less about 7YW.  What sources do you recommend for reading about Russian army/campaigning in this period. I have the Ospreys.

Also I heard about 'flying columns' Russians formed with couple of Musketeer/Grenadier Regt, some light artillery and Cossacks lead by Regular officers. Anyone have anything to offer on these.

Many thanks to the collective mind.

John

[armchairgeneral]

Other than the Ospreys, the Pengel and Hurt books and the Kronoskaf website

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Russian_Army#References

The only other source I have found in English is Russia’s Military Way to the West by Christopher Duffy which spans 1700 - 1800 so only partly covers the SYW.

[vtsaogames]

Since it's an ahistorical game, you can include some pandours (light infantry), who didn't participate in the campaigns against Frederick. They fought in loose skirmish order.

Figure most infantry could manage maye two shots a minute at best, plus they carried 20-30 rounds. I forget the actual amount in the cartridge box, maybe less. Most bayonet charges in the open ended with one side or the other running before most contact. Those who got stabbed either were slow or didn't notice everyone else running away. Usual formation for musketeers (most Russian infantry) and grenadiers was three rank deep line, shoulder to shoulder, loading done standing up. In the summer the dark green coats were left in the wagons, red waistcoats being in evidence.

[JohnFoA]

Thanks. Pengel and Hurt looking good. Caliber Books here I come (other bookstores are available).

What are Pandours? I have a faint inkling they're Croats or Balkan infantry of sorts but their organisation?

I see from Osprey that two units of Skirmishers/Sharpshooters were formed at Siege of Colberg(?). So I might extrapolate that.

Any other help is MOST WELCOME.

John

[vtsaogames]

According to Kronoskaf, three battalions of Pandours were formed from Serbian immigrants to the Ukraine after many local units had been sent to the war in Prussia. They look like Habsburg Grenzers. Each regiment (of 1 battalion) had 20 companies, 5 of grenadiers and 15 of Pandours. I have not seen an OB for them fighting against Prussia. But why not send them to Alaska?

Some of the Habsburg Grenzers were Serbians. Most were Croats.

Here's Kronoskaf on the Russian army https://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Russian_Army

scroll down for light infantry

[Moriarty]

Good evening folks

So some friends suggest a wacky Flint and Feather with European overtones type campaign. Well series of games. So I thought, Russians, none of them have Russians.

So what can I do to represent a slightly mad Ducal expedition to/via (read annexation of) Alaska and onto all points east, ending in Quebec.  Yeah it's just a thin excuse to have something Russian in Canada.

Now I know very little about non-repeating firearms and even less about 7YW.  What sources do you recommend for reading about Russian army/campaigning in this period. I have the Ospreys.

Also I heard about 'flying columns' Russians formed with couple of Musketeer/Grenadier Regt, some light artillery and Cossacks lead by Regular officers. Anyone have anything to offer on these.

Many thanks to the collective mind.

John

If you are going ‘what if’, the Russians used Tartar horse in the 18th century, and are more likely to be found in the east of the country than Cossacks. Pandouren/ Pandours were their light infantry. They also had a unit of grenadiers (lower case intended) with muzzle loaded, shoulder fired grenade launchers :-) Think about how they get to Canada - supply train drovers/sailors might be fun.

IIRC Flint&Feather are pre-gunpowder skirmish, with no cavalry? I assume you are porting rules in for Europeans. So a couple of officers, child sized drummers/ensigns, musket armed troops of some description to start, then go wild!

[traveller]

Sounds like a fun project!

Considering that the Russians sent an expedition to explore Alaska in 1741 a Russian military expedition a few years later is not at all far fetched. Since Russia conquered Siberia with cossack troops they would likely be the main component in a expedition to Alaska/Canada. Since the driver for taking Alaska was the fur trade, you would also have a traders, trappers and mercenaries. The tough climate would limit the number of regular troops from Western Russia, which might be limited to specialists such as engineers and artillery. Looking forward to hear more of your exploits!

[10thMountain]

Sounds good.  Check out this link. https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/russians-vs-tlingits-in-alaska-1792/

[SJWi]

Hi, the great Christopher Duffy wrote a book "Russia's Military Way to the West", which albeit going in the wrong direction is subtitled "origins and nature of Russian Military Power 1700-1800 so may have some relevant information. No idea if it is still available.  My copy is 40 years old!

[zippyfusenet]

I think you want Cossacks and Aleuts, foot and boat Cossacks. The Tlingit thread on the Pike, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts board should offer some ideas.

The Shaman's Coat is a recent pop history of Siberia, especially the Russian conquest. Might be of interest.

https://www.amazon.com/Shamans-Coat-Native-History-Siberia/dp/0802776760/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+shaman%27s+coat&qid=1620233435&s=books&sr=1-1

Or maybe I was thinking of East of the Sun:

https://www.amazon.com/East-Sun-Conquest-History-Siberia-ebook/dp/B00QJE5WI6/ref=sr_1_3?crid=36V22NRDZEA4Y&dchild=1&keywords=east+of+the+sun&qid=1620233646&s=books&sprefix=east+of+the+sun%2Caps%2C172&sr=1-3

[JohnFoA]

Apologies all

Hadn't been able to look at this for several months.  Really like the 'recent' imput and ideas.

I think the force, which is essentially a small skirmish game, will have some relgulars for which I will use Observation Army maybe two Bns worth, some Horse grenadiers and Hussars  (Two and Four Sqdns respectively); plus the irregluars that are suggested - Cossacks and Pandours.  For fun a version of the improvised Jager Unit (Bn sized) from siege of (damnit where - Danzig?).

The advantage of these sizes is they can be based individually onto larger movement trays for a bigger game.   Some Engineers with Grenade launchers would be fun and sledge mount small cannon to round it off.

Oh and too many officers


Thanks again for help.  Very much appreciated.

[olicana]

Russia's Military Way To The West [Duffy] is a must have if you are serious about the Russians.

Kronoskaf is an amazing resource. I won a prize for my Russians (Zorndorf?) on it once.

As for the Observation Corps, mmmm. You might be better simply going for a few normal battalions with normal artillery as they are far more versatile going forwards. The OC was only used for one purpose and was largely made up of unhorsed dragoons (hence them wearing cavalry boots). Later they were converted, yet again, into artillery crew.

Russian cavalry was usually fielded under strength by squadrons (3 rather than 5), so you can usually do small units; especially for Cuirassier and  Horse Grenadiers. Dragoons were very few on the ground (see comments on the Observation Corps). Plenty of Cossacks is always good but they are not the Cossacks of later times - most were useless, and ten thousand were sent home immediately after the outbreak of hostilities with Prussia because they were neither use nor ornament (only the best units were kept on establishment). Hussars were fielded in numbers, so you might think about these as your mainstay (especially if they are for imagi-Canada-nations).

Russians didn't use very many light infantry despite the number of manufacturers wanting you to buy the ones they have sculpted. In fact, from memory, jager / pandours only featured at the siege of Colberg: Skirmishing takes initiative - not something any 7YW Russians were known for.

John, I don't know what scale you are looking for but, go with Russians in small clothes (sleeved waistcoat) rather than full coat because they are a doddle to paint. In 28mm the Foundry ones are just the ticket. Avoid the Foundry Dragoon Command Pack: the drummer is wrong, just plain wrong - and they will do nothing about it but argue the toss (I phoned them); its a simple case of a lazy, ill informed sculpting conversion of a cuirassier musician (it's a scandal).

I love the Russians, as you can see from these shots of a one man project (all of my Russians and some of my Prussians): Zorndorf at 1:40 (from memory).

[MaleGriffin]

WoW!!!!