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Author Topic: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?  (Read 779 times)

Online HappyChappy439

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 501
15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« on: May 24, 2020, 04:55:11 PM »
Hi!

After Atheling's thread on the appearance of the Palaiologan Byzantines in the mid-15th century ( https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=124624.0 ) , I've been doing some thinking about trying to put together some Byzantines of my own!

But I've gotten a bit indecisive about what sort of flags/banners to use with them! Do we know if there are any sources around the sort of flags that would be used in the 15th century by either the Byzantines in Constantinople, the Despotate of the Morea or the Empire of Trebizond?

There's the obvious Tetragrammatic Cross, and double-headed Eagles, but are there any others that would be in use? I assume generic flags would be mostly colourful stripes (blue/white, black/white for Trebizond, red/yellow), or Russian-style religious icons, but is that correct for the 15th century?

Similarly, would shields be a similar sort of non-heraldic colourful patterning? (Like later Stratioti?)

Offline Atheling

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Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2020, 05:24:29 PM »
I think you can probably guess what I'm going to say......  o_o

I haven't got a clue! I would certainly be very interested in finding out.

Moldavia, Wallachia, Hungary and Serbia did develop a defined heraldry so it would be interesting to see if that had spread to Constantinople and the surrounding territories.

Offline Eoin OCnaimhsi

  • Bookworm
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    • oldworldtales
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2020, 07:57:55 AM »
Currently listening to The History of Byzantium podcast by Robin Pierson, having gotten through the History of Rome podcast also(which was enthralling).

The later period is to be honest too tragic for me to put together an army for.
My Mostly 16th Century Irish blog
https://oldworldtalestabletop.blogspot.com/?m=1

"Lamh Dearg abu"

Offline OB

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 534
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2020, 10:09:12 AM »
I'd chance an icon or two.  The Byzantines had used them in a previous period and Christianity remained a major part of their political identity.

Offline Hunlion

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 134
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2020, 12:11:47 PM »
Two flags and transfers here...  https://www.schildschmie.de/

Hunlion

Offline bluewillow

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Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2020, 05:42:01 AM »
I suspect the eagle banners and iconographic banners, plus small pennants, I will have a look through my collection of books.

Cheers
Matt
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 05:47:03 AM by bluewillow »
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Offline bluewillow

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Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2020, 05:47:30 AM »
Looking at the art and heraldry

A good article here
https://www.hubert-herald.nl/ByzantiumArms.htm


John VIII


Constantine XI Palaiologos









My nephew loves the period and I will ask him
https://pceldran.wordpress.com/page/2/

Cheers
Matt
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 06:24:13 AM by bluewillow »

Offline Atheling

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Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2020, 07:12:54 AM »
Brilliant stuff Matt- you've done it again!  8) 8) 8)

Offline Jericho

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Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2020, 09:05:25 AM »
Maybe you can adapt some of the coat of arms found here:

Wappenwiki
De hem weert, ic salt hem lonen.

Plastic Warfare Blog

Offline Anderson Collection

  • Mad Scientist
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    • The Anderson Collection
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2020, 09:26:46 AM »
 HP439

This is my take on some of the flags taken from various searches.

Willie

Offline Captain Harlock

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 375
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2020, 09:29:37 AM »
Ι wouldnt use Theophilos (the painter) as a source. As for family heraldry, there wasnt in the western european sense. What existed was mainly of frankish influence. There were state flags and during the 9-10th centuries there were specific army unit banners etc. Im going to search through my sources and see what I can find for you.

Offline Captain Harlock

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 375
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2020, 09:46:18 AM »
Οk your best bet is this
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yzfaNt0B7-W5IV9HXx-hgcwRBgQv8Uce/view
Its a reasearch by a professor of Theology, its in greek by I guess google translate could help. Its an effort to document late Roman family heraldry and banners, but Im warning you there is not concrete proof so dont take all this as a matter of fact.
If you need any help with the language just ask.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 09:49:24 AM by Captain Harlock »

Offline Anderson Collection

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    • The Anderson Collection
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2020, 10:12:19 AM »
That's put together very well a lot of the images are what I used for my flags but really good to see them all in one place.

Online HappyChappy439

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 501
Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2020, 02:57:11 PM »
Oh wow! Thanks for the help everyone! Really helpful references!

And thanks for the link to the PDF @Captain Harlock! Definitely gives me an excuse to dust off my Greek  lol

(Also, I wasn't aware of a rebellion in the Pontus in the 1470s! I know Uzun Hasan was at war with the Ottomans at that time, but I figured that was his own thing, rather than any specific pro-Komnenos goal! Do we know if the Alexios Komnenos mentioned there has any evidence?)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 03:01:32 PM by HappyChappy439 »

Offline Atheling

  • Galactic Brain
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Re: 15th Century Byzantine Flags?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2020, 03:15:14 PM »
Yeah, I'd like to add my thanks to Mr Anderson and Captain Harlock.

That pdf will come in very useful indeed.  8)

 

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