Do all Matte Varnishes come out true matte, or will everything have a sheen?

[Wiegraf]

Hello everyone.

Just wanting to see some folks opinions and experience with using matte varnishes. Obviously once you've painted a miniature from start to finish you want it to last awhile and you want to protect it, especially if you plan to wargame.  I am the kind of guy who likes to keep the original paint job as close as possible, so I tend to gravitate to matte finishes.  My big issue however is that so far I have yet to find something that is truly matte.

Once a mini is finished, I have tried two highly suggested methods of sealing.

  I've tried to paint Vallejo Matte Varnish in thin layers, watered slightly down, on top of my minis. Typically I do 2 on plastics, and 3-4 on metals. This seems like good protection but im told the varnish will slowly rub off over time and isn't the most ideal - that and it always leaves a slight sheen / shine on top of it, which slightly alters my original paint job. I do anywhere form a 1:1 ratio of water to varnish to a 1:2 Ratio of varnish to water.


The other more recent item  I've used and have ended up covering all my collection is Testor's dullcote. It's advertised to have a "dull, matte finish" But I am finding that my models ,despite me feeling they are now super protected, come out far more shiny than they were.  I've sprayed Dullcote over minis varnished with vallejo matte painted on and I've also now sprayed over minis that don't have any vallejo.  I immediately noticed after letting them dry for 24+ hours that some spots seem more shiny than others, which is annoying since I like to do close up shots.

Out of the two methods, I've decided after much comparison and contemplating that I prefer just painting on layers of vallejo matte varnish by hand in thin layers - but is this a truly good way to protect models? I'm told that it's not ideal for long term protection if you game a lot with pieces , so i went with dullcote. .

Is there anything out there that is truly matte? Or if I want protected models am I just going to have to accept and suck up the slight sheen that appear on miniatures after sealing them? Thank you in advance!

[vexillia]

The slight sheen seen with matt varnishes is very common but not inevitable.  I've seen  great things written about Windsor & Newton Professional matt varnish sprays but I've not tried it as I'm  a "brush on" person.

You should be aware that varnishing a figure will always alter the colours slightly; sheen or no sheen.  I find this helpful to "tie" a paint scheme together.

The reason behind the slight sheen is very complex and is surrounded by myths galore.  Factors include the porosity of the final paint layer, the amount of matting agent in the varnish and user expectations & techniques.  These links may help:

https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2014/01/recent-article-unvarnished-truth_15.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2013/04/varnish-recovery-technique.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2008/05/painting-tips-1-humbrol-mattcote.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2014/05/painting-tips-5c-matting-acrylics-with.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2016/06/painting-tips-8primer-update.html

I use Vallejo paints at lot and have found that adding talc really helps them dry dead flat and significantly improves how they respond (or not) to being varnished.

In general users expect a varnish to dry dead flat, provide rock solid protection in every circumstance and compensate for all sorts of random painting materials & techniques.  Needless to say this is almost impossible; at least judging by the number of threads I see on matt varnishing.

Finally, the one thing that isn't likely to happen is that the varnish rubs off - see the "Unvarnished Truth" article - it's much more likely to be the result of poor priming or grease from your figures.

[batu]

Ak 183 Ultra Matte Varnish

Is the best stuff in my opinion in terms of a "true" matte finish. I varnish with gloss first, for protection and use AK to make it matte again.

[Wiegraf]

Thanks for the quick responses and input!

The slight sheen seen with matt varnishes is very common but not inevitable.  I've seen  great things written about Windsor & Newton Professional matt varnish sprays but I've not tried it as I'm  a "brush on" person.

Me too - I brush on everything if I can, including primer.  I started using Testor's dullcote since I wanted that extra coat of protection, and I think so far what I am gathering from it is that it basically does give you a clear coat for the most part - but I found after some tests that I was wrong, and its actually the brush on Vallejo Matt varnish that is the ultimate culprit for the shine!  The shine and such from the Vallejo Varnish remains even after applying dull cote.. Other projects without the paint on varnish also have the sheen as mentioned after dullcoting them, albeit they're not as noticeable!

You should be aware that varnishing a figure will always alter the colours slightly; sheen or no sheen.  I find this helpful to "tie" a paint scheme together.

Yes - I have found that to be the case. Especially if you do not allow your mini to cure for awhile. Actually, before I even put on any sort of Matt varnish, I let the model sit for a whole week. This should allow them to have the absolute amount of time to completely cure. When I applied the Vallejo Matt Varnish, I notice colors did slightly change, but the over all effect was duller - which I don't mind at all and prefer.  Hopefully if Is top using vallejo Matt varnish i can find a way to dull those paints to a satisfactory level but keep that shine away!

I've read through those links and there is much to take away from them.. and I use a mix of Vallejo and Citadel paints with much success, though adding talc seems like an interesting option. I will have to try it out. As for varnish coming off, I suppose I always try to grab models from the base and use movement trays. That probably is what kept my models intact for these years of gaming.

Ak 183 Ultra Matte Varnish

Is the best stuff in my opinion in terms of a "true" matte finish. I varnish with gloss first, for protection and use AK to make it matte again.

I had never heard of it, but after reading many reviews about it and reading how it was even successful at killing shine over dullcote and vallejo, I'm willing to give it a try especially if I can brush it on. I just bought a bottle and I think I'll try it out over top some of my already varnished lads and if that kills the excess shine to a satisfactory level I may try a matte vallejo varnish mix - to get the dulled color effect I want and then the  ak183 mix over top of that to kill any shine.  If that doesn't work, at least I can say I tried some of the "ultra" and maybe should just accept the fact there will be sheen to minis !

[Ray Rivers]

I use Vallejo Matte Varnish from the bottle and I paint it on. The result does not have a sheen.

Having said that, I used to use Vallejo Matte Varnish from the can first. I spray the varnish into the plastic top of the can and then paint it on. The mini will then have a sheen to it. After that I then use the Vallejo Matte Varnish from the bottle and paint that over the miniature to take away the sheen. This works well and takes away the sheen and gives you a nice flat appearance. The problem here is that the varnish from the can is just too toxic for me, even wearing a mask.

What I do is evaluate the miniature(s) I am working on and determine where am I going to be generally grabbing the miniature. If, for example, you are working on a 28mm metal mini, with a thin base (like a coin), then I will be putting multiple coats of bottled liquid varnish on the mini... as I paint it. So, for example, after I put the base coat of paint on the mini, I will then varnish it. When I have added detail or a highlight, I will then varnish it again. When I am totally finished I then give the mini 2 coats of varnish. In the end I will have varnished the mini at least 6 times.

If OTOH I am working on a group of minis which I will place on a large base which is thick enough to grab, I just paint up the minis and when finished give them at least 2 or 3 coats of the liquid Vallejo varnish.

So basing of the miniature determines how I approach it concerning varnish. That is why, in general, I use large bases for single minis. Yep, a coin looks nicer, but it means I need extra protection. Note that consideration for how I varnish a mini is determined by both weight and based width.

I also highly recommend painting on your varnish. You can control the amount of varnish you put on the mini and avoid overdoing it and getting all kinds of weird varnish problems that occur when you spray on the varnish. It also means you can put on multiple coats, especially on areas where you know you are going to grab the mini.

That is how I do it. I am happy with the results.

[Mindenbrush]

Dullcote should give you a full matte finish but it has to be applied in light coats as they changed the formula. In the past one could soak a figure in Dullcote and still have it dry matte.

I use Humbrol Gloss to protect figures and then brush on 2 coats of Windsor & Newton Cryla Soluble Acrylic Matte Vanish which gives a very matte finish.
And I can clean the brush with soap and water.

[Wiegraf]

I use Vallejo Matte Varnish from the bottle and I paint it on. The result does not have a sheen.

In every case so far, be it direct use, or mixed with water (sometimes a 1:1 ratio, sometimes a 2:1 ratio of water to Vallejo) I do get some form of extra shine. And I shake the heck out of that bottle!  I'm finding not mixing water has the lowest sheen so far though as long as it goes on extra thin.

I have traditionally painted on all my Varnish, and I usually use 2-3 cots of Vallejo Matte on my plastics, and 3-4 on my metals. To be honest, I went and got the dullcote since many people said its the best for protection. It may be the case, but I am not convinced by it , though on my all metal armies it may be the best thing to coat with Vallejo then add a dullcote after for max protection.

Dullcote should give you a full matte finish but it has to be applied in light coats as they changed the formula. In the past one could soak a figure in Dullcote and still have it dry matte.

I do only one coat, and it's a fair distance away, certainly the recommended distance. I even went a bit closer the second time round I used it, and it still came out with the same result.  I think it's best from a distance still.



I found that reds are especially bright on my models, no matter what. And that just might be the way red reflects light, but in any case you can see in the back of this Samnites model that I had originally used Vallejo matte varnish on with a brush then dullcoted, that tried three different methods.

From his back, the left sleeve is straight on Vallejo matte varnish with no added water. This has a tiny sheen in the light but its not bad.  On the right is Vallejo matte varnish thinned with Vallejo Thinner.. not a great idea. Even on a thin coat it made the thing even more shiny. The most interesting though was the Lahmian Medium from citadel which is on the bottom part of the tunic. It really got rid of a lot of the shine, and impressed me the most, but on further testing it really seemed random on various miniatures. Sometimes it covered up shine well, other times it seemed to do nothing.

In any case, I may be over thinking the entire thing. I took some photos and while under my bright painting light and up close I can see the matte varnish like in the Samnites image . But when I put them on a gaming table with regular room light they look just fine.  Maybe I notice one spot or two, but overall it really doesn't affect it I think.






Perhaps I am being way too picky and focusing on models in light not regularly used for gaming?  I don't know but they're starting to look fine on the table..

Regardless, I still will try out other matte varnish that I can, and share my results here. Thank you everyone so far for the feedback and suggestions!

[Ray Rivers]

Nice modeling!

Some interesting comments and observations as well. Personally I don't have a problem with liquid Vallejo Matte Varnish.

But then again, at my age I don't see as well as before. 

[Wiegraf]

Nice modeling!

Some interesting comments and observations as well. Personally I don't have a problem with liquid Vallejo Matte Varnish.

But then again, at my age I don't see as well as before. 

Thank you! Yes, I will just have to practice and see the best result. I guess that is always something we do on our journey with painting miniatures.

Just to add - I found that the Lahamian isn't ideal as sometimes it'll pool in some recesses and cause white residue to remain. And as said sometimes it does nothing to the mini for matte. I just used some on one of my command figures for my Roman Legions, and the matte died down quite nicely. But then on a Samnites I used it and there was no effect. Very puzzling. 

[Timmo]

I seal the painted surface with Vallejo gloss varnish. This ensures the colours don't change when matt varnished. I've used Daler Rowney soluble matt varnish for years and was given some really excellent advice here on how best to use it by Orctrader.

Basically let the bottle settle and separate into the thicker matting agent and the thin clear carrier fluid on top. It can take a few weeks to settle out or you might find it has already done so, if it's stood around in an art shop for a while. Pour off about half the clear carrier liquid into a small container. Shake and stir the modified varnish for about ten minutes. Now test it.

I use Perry plastics as my crash test dummies. I paint them dark blue as this is the hardest colour to get to go really matt. (I gloss varnish these test figures first.) Apply the varnish as thinly as you can whilst ensuring complete coverage and make sure you don't let it pool in the recesses. If you get white streaks appearing as it dries add more clear carrier and repeat as necessary. Once you've got experienced you can judge it at just the right point to stop adding carrier liquid whilst ensuring you don't get white streaks.

Get it right and the end result is an absolutely dead flat matt finish. Using this acrylic varnish ensures that the finish won't yellow over time.

[pixelgeek]

Just to add - I found that the Lahamian isn't ideal as sometimes it'll pool in some recesses and cause white residue to remain.

Are you sure it is the medium and not mineral deposits in your water?

[Orctrader]

...I've used Daler Rowney soluble matt varnish for years and was given some really excellent advice here on how best to use it by Orctrader...

Original article is still on my website.     LINK

And my painted figures still have no sheen - mostly.   

[armchairgeneral]

I am finding GW Technical Stormshield gives a good matt finish. I put it on after a coat of their ‘Ardcoat gloss varnish.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Stormshield-2019

[MondayKnight]

Years ago I found it worth the money to go to an art supply store and pick up the spray can of flat finish for oil paintings, it gives me a nice flat coat that when it dries overnight is unseen in the morning.  It is not cheap, but I found it worth it in the end.

[Jack Jones]

The slight sheen seen with matt varnishes is very common but not inevitable.  I've seen  great things written about Windsor & Newton Professional matt varnish sprays but I've not tried it as I'm  a "brush on" person.

You should be aware that varnishing a figure will always alter the colours slightly; sheen or no sheen.  I find this helpful to "tie" a paint scheme together.

The reason behind the slight sheen is very complex and is surrounded by myths galore.  Factors include the porosity of the final paint layer, the amount of matting agent in the varnish and user expectations & techniques.  These links may help:

https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2014/01/recent-article-unvarnished-truth_15.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2013/04/varnish-recovery-technique.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2008/05/painting-tips-1-humbrol-mattcote.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2014/05/painting-tips-5c-matting-acrylics-with.html
https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2016/06/painting-tips-8primer-update.html

I use Vallejo paints at lot and have found that adding talc really helps them dry dead flat and significantly improves how they respond (or not) to being varnished.

In general users expect a varnish to dry dead flat, provide rock solid protection in every circumstance and compensate for all sorts of random painting materials & techniques.  Needless to say this is almost impossible; at least judging by the number of threads I see on matt varnishing.

Finally, the one thing that isn't likely to happen is that the varnish rubs off - see the "Unvarnished Truth" article - it's much more likely to be the result of poor priming or grease from your figures.

Hi All

I have been struggling with getting a flat matt finish for a while. In the past I used Testors Dullcote, the bottled brush-on variety (I don’t have facilities for spraying), and it was simply fantastic.

More recently I have been using W&N Galleria matt varnish, but this wasn’t consistent, so I started adding Tamyia X-21 Flat base … which seemed to work pretty well, but still left me with an inexplicable sheen from time-to-time.

Yesterday I stumbled on this thread, and in particular the links above. How interesting! Explains a few things. Thank you!

I am about to try Daler Rowney acrylic soluble matt varnish …

Cheers
JJ