13th earl oxford, red or orange ?

[happyhiker]

I'm rebasing my wotr figures and thought I’d take the opportunity to fix flags and badges etc. So my understanding is Oxford liveried his men in Red. Specifically battle of Bosworth. I went to a re-enactment where they made a big thing of oxford's red being confused with Norfolk’s red. So fine I’ve painted them red. But all the examples of his livery badge are a blue boar on an Orange background. Why orange shouldn't it be red ?  I’ve seen examples of figures where oxfords men are in orange livery. So which is it ? Or did it change for different battles? Should Oxford at bosworth have a red star instead ?

[Black Burt]

Prove me wrong but in medieval times I dont think there was a colour called orange, so what we call orange now was just a pale shade of red. I think in heraldic terms orange would have been classed as Gules (red).
As colours where not very fast in those days a dark red could fade down to a pale red which could be an orange colour quite quickly.

[Cubs]

Prove me wrong but in medieval times I dont think there was a colour called orange, so what we call orange now was just a pale shade of red.

True dat.

Yeah, it's why we call foxes, deer, squirrels, robins etc.. red, although really the colour is closer to orange. The colour orange was named after the fruit, not the other way round.

[happyhiker]

Hmmm I’m not sure red ever fades to orange, it fades to pink. Like many a young student who did his own washing at university for the first time and had a few months of pink undies can attest to. (I know that’s die running in to white, but nothing came out orange). So sound to me like the orange liveries and banners are artistic license to stop everyone being red ? There’s no actual proof the badge was orange then ?  Gules is red ( at least to start with) Warwick was also red/ gules ? So not everyone recorded as red is painted orange. ( not like it’s confusing enough without giving words different meanings). If I photoshop my blue boar on a red background, to match the livery's that’s might be more Accurate ? (Even If not what the banners for sale are)

[Atheling]

Prove me wrong but in medieval times I dont think there was a colour called orange, so what we call orange now was just a pale shade of red. I think in heraldic terms orange would have been classed as Gules (red).

Bang on the mark. Gules (red) was a component of the heraldic alphabet so it would follow that red would be red.

[happyhiker]

Ok, thanks so let’s go with gules. So Oxford had a livery banner of a blue boar on a gules background. His livery was gules, so was Warwicks and so was Norfolk’s. Is that right ? The actual shade of gules that anyone had at anyone time is purely conjecture ? Is that right ?

[HappyChappy439]

Ok, thanks so let’s go with gules. So Oxford had a livery banner of a blue boar on a gules background. His livery was gules, so was Warwicks and so was Norfolk’s. Is that right ? The actual shade of gules that anyone had at anyone time is purely conjecture ? Is that right ?

My understanding is that in heraldic terms, gules is quite a bright red (like the red in the English royal coat of arms), where darker reds (Murray/Crimson/Vermilion) are specifically named when they get used instead

[Atheling]

My understanding is that in heraldic terms, gules is quite a bright red (like the red in the English royal coat of arms), where darker reds (Murray/Crimson/Vermilion) are specifically named when they get used instead

What HappyChappy said.

[vexillia]

OK guys enough with the pink undies stuff!

According to Pat McGill's book on Standards and Banners & other sources, in heraldry colours are composed of Stains (3), Metals (2), Colours (5) and Furs (3).  Of these three are pertinent to this discussion:

• Tenne/Tawney = Orange
• Murrey/Russet/Sanguine = Blood Red (Claret)
• Gules = Red

So heraldic orange is not faded red (even if it could fade to that shade) it is orange/Tawney.  Oxford's standard was Tawney not red and it's very likely his livery was Tawney (details & database).



Sad to say, if you want them right it's time to repaint Oxford's livery.

[Black Burt]

Thanks for puting me right.

[happyhiker]

Sad to say, if you want them right it's time to repaint Oxford's livery.

Ah ok, great that makes sense. So what’s with the re-enactment saying oxfords red got mixed up with Norfolk’s red? Not true?
(I'm not repainting them either way, I could turn them in warwicks men though..)

[vexillia]

So what’s with the re-enactment saying oxfords red got mixed up with Norfolk’s red? Not true?

Can't really comment on hearsay.  ;-)  But this might help:

Standard's & liveries at Bosworth:
==
Norfolk's was (likely) Red & White
Oxford's was (likely) Orange/Tawney
Stanley's was Red
Percy's was (likely) Red & Black

Plenty of scope for confusion but I've not read about any such at Bosworth.  Norfolk & Oxford were in direct opposition.  I did find this on the Bosworth Wikipedia page:

Henry Tudor was unfamiliar with the arts of war and was a stranger to the land he was trying to conquer. He spent the first fourteen years of his life in Wales and the next fourteen in Brittany and France.[57] Slender but strong and decisive, Henry lacked a penchant for battle and was not much of a warrior; chroniclers such as Polydore Vergil and ambassadors like Pedro de Ayala found him more interested in commerce and finance.[58] Having not fought in any battles,[59] Henry recruited several experienced veterans to command his armies.[60] John de Vere, 13th, Earl of Oxford, was Henry's principal military commander.[61] He was adept in the arts of war. At the Battle of Barnet, he commanded the Lancastrian right wing and routed the division opposing him. However, as a result of confusion over identities, Oxford's group came under friendly fire from the Lancastrian main force and retreated from the field. The earl fled abroad and continued his fight against the Yorkists, raiding shipping and eventually capturing the island fort of St Michael's Mount in 1473. He surrendered after receiving no aid or reinforcement, but in 1484 escaped from prison and joined Henry's court in France, bringing along his erstwhile gaoler Sir James Blount.[62] Oxford's presence raised morale in Henry's camp and troubled Richard III.[63]

Note this confusion was at Barnet not Bosworth!  I suggest you ask the re-enactors exactly which battle they were talking about the next time you see them. :-)

[vexillia]

Update:  I just checked the Freezywater flag sheets in the garage for you.  There has to be some advantage to being a Freezywater retailer.

They have Oxford's standard as a red/orange and his livery as red/orange but more red and not the same colour as used on the standard.  Oxford's standard is clearly a different colour to others on the same sheet which are clearly red the livery flag less so.

The colour difference between the sheets is probably a printing artefact.  Plus the Oxford livery flag doesn't use the blue boar but a white sun which may have been an earlier badge.

[happyhiker]

Ok thanks for checking. So safe on the red, phew. ( I tried to match the red on oxfords red and yellow standard which is a bit orangey). So I guess I just need to work out the livery banner used, even if it’s not red.

So what resources did freezywater, and indeed pat mc Gill use to come up with the colours, presumably they went through far more documents than I’m prepared to....

( the re-enactment was at bosworth field, maybe they added the confusion as a bit of colour borrowing it from Barnett, it was a guy yelling a lot over a loud speaker perhaps not the most reliable source)

[vexillia]

Ok thanks for checking. So safe on the red, phew. ( I tried to match the red on oxfords red and yellow standard which is a bit orangey). So I guess I just need to work out the livery banner used, even if it’s not red.

Not so safe.  The standard (tawney) is different from the heraldic flag (red & yellow).  This difference is common: there are many examples of heraldic flags that have no colours in common with either the standard or livery flags.  The latter two are often linked however.

I'm afraid It's orange!