British Tank Markings - A Guide

[SquireBev]

I've updated the Overview page a bit to include Royal Artillery markings. Further details will follow when I give them their own page.

https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/british-tank-markings-overview.html

[Jemima Fawr]

Nice. 

Do you need the various RA code-letters/numbers, or do you already have that info?

One on the infantry divisions page:  The 53rd (Welsh) Division sign (the 'Red Crown') was painted on a green square when it was used as a vehicle marking.  The khaki rectangular backing was used when it was a uniform badge.

[SquireBev]

Nice. 

Do you need the various RA code-letters/numbers, or do you already have that info?

One on the infantry divisions page:  The 53rd (Welsh) Division sign (the 'Red Crown') was painted on a green square when it was used as a vehicle marking.  The khaki rectangular backing was used when it was a uniform badge.

I think I have it all. A decent fellow on another forum sent me his old copy of Hodges' British Military Markings, and it's all in there. It's the original edition 1971 edition though so I suppose new info may have come to light since then!

What sort of green is it for the Welsh division? Dark like the modern Welsh Brigade?

[Jemima Fawr]

I think I have it all. A decent fellow on another forum sent me his old copy of Hodges' British Military Markings, and it's all in there. It's the original edition 1971 edition though so I suppose new info may have come to light since then!

What sort of green is it for the Welsh division? Dark like the modern Welsh Brigade?

Great stuff!

It's the same medium-bottle-green shade they used for the 2nd brigade AoS markings.

[Jemima Fawr]

As an aside, there was a push-bike in a militaria shop in Ste Mere-Eglise for many years that was fully-marked for 53 (Welsh) Recce Regiment, as if it was an armoured car

There was also an officer's suitcase formerly owned by an RWF officer in the Mont Ormel museum that had the 53 (W) Div sign painted on it, along with the AoS sign.  He'd even repainted the AoS sign in accordance with the August 1944 unit-reshuffle!

[Eclaireur]

SquireBev

well done acquiring a copy of Hodges which is pretty rare, and quite valuable in its 1971 first edition. That said, M. D. Taylor's revised edition, published by Cannon in 1994, is different in a good many places, revisiting some of Hodges work + adding new numbers from some lists that Hodges was unaware of.

there are a few areas of mystery still - including I think the numbering of some of the independent armoured and tank brigades in the middle east 1941-43.

EC

[Jemima Fawr]

I completely forgot to correct and re-draw the 254th Indian Tank Brigade sign on my Burma guide before posting the revision, so ignore that one.  Mine was taken from the Indian Armoured Corps official history, but it's wrong.  The triangle should be inverted and the backing should be red, not yellow (perhaps the Indian Armoured Corps was looking at a faded badge?).  When painted in its full form there was a red extension at the bottom of the triangle, with three black 'drops' (from the brigade motto 'Blood On The Tracks'), though this extension was apparently often left off - especially when worn as a badge.

[Etranger]

This is a good primer for armour markings in  the Far East http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/britain/junglearmourbookreviewab_1.html although Jems own information is pretty comprehensive. It only covers the Shermans but a lot can then be extrapolated to other vehicles.

Eclaireur - IIRC some of the relevant documentation for the ME is 'missing', whether lost, misfiled or destroyed is unclear.

[SquireBev]

well done acquiring a copy of Hodges which is pretty rare, and quite valuable in its 1971 first edition. That said, M. D. Taylor's revised edition, published by Cannon in 1994, is different in a good many places, revisiting some of Hodges work + adding new numbers from some lists that Hodges was unaware of.

I'm hoping if I drop enough hints on enough forums someone might point me to an old copy they no longer need... 

Otherwise it's a trip to Aberystwyth when the National Library of Wales reopens, as I believe they've got a reference copy.

[Eclaireur]

SquireBev - I have a copy of Taylor, let me know if there's something specific you're after. Another quite interesting one is 'British Tanks And Formations 1939-1945' by Malcolm A. Bellis, self published in 1987. It's a compendium of all sorts of information, though quite a slim volume so not an in depth study.
With regard to the middle east, things are complicated by the brief organisation of armoured divisions with two armoured brigades and the transition of tank brigades into armoured ones.
Bellis suggests: 'numerals 151-154 and 155-158 are purported to apply to senior and junior Tank brigades in an Army configuration. Green is reportedly preferred for Tank Brigades and red for Armoured brigades. However there is some evidence to suggest red being used by Tank Brigades'. 
When I ask myself a question like 'what marking scheme would be used by 32nd Tank Brigade early in 1942 at Tobruk?' is just makes my head hurt!

Etranger - thanks for the tip on the Far East book, it looks great 

[SquireBev]

SquireBev - I have a copy of Taylor, let me know if there's something specific you're after. Another quite interesting one is 'British Tanks And Formations 1939-1945' by Malcolm A. Bellis, self published in 1987. It's a compendium of all sorts of information, though quite a slim volume so not an in depth study.

Thanks for the offer! If I run up against any obstacles I'll know who to come to.

I've got Bellis' "Brigades of..." and "Divisions of the British Army" - both have proven pretty useful. I might see if I can track down a copy of this other booklet. Bellis' stuff doesn't seem to attract the same ludicrous markup as Hodges and Taylor.

[Etranger]

For AoS, Vol 3 of Dick Taylor's 'Warpaint' series has a long list of serial numbers covering many theatres including the Middle East. The series is pricy but about as comprehensive as you'll find. https://www.scalemates.com/books/warpaint-green-series-3-dick-taylor--108484

There are 4 volumes, I've only got 1-3 at the moment. No. 4 will be bought when I'm financial enough!

[SquireBev]

The series is pricy

You're not kidding...



Thankfully I've been lucky enough to get access to the AoS tables via a third party (ahemhem), as there's no way to justify these ridiculous prices. Each volume was £20 when it came out, which I don't think is unreasonable, but to charge ten times that for a second hand copy when it's not even ten years old is just ludicrous.

[Eclaireur]

PRICEY?! 
something of an under-statement. I know Dick Taylor is the go to guy these days, and I'm sure these books are great but there's something really wrong with that publishing model. Given there is clearly a big demand, maybe charge more for the books to start with + print more copies, so the author gets more for his efforts rather than the second hand bookseller raking it in?
The AFV publishing world seems to have plenty of precedents with this, eg with Squadron publications. Panzerwrecks seems to do a little better IMO in reprinting when the demand is there, thus making sure they and the authors get better paid for it.
Maybe I will check the British Library catalogue for Dick Taylor's books ...
EC   

[SquireBev]

Maybe I will check the British Library catalogue for Dick Taylor's books ...

This is the only sensible option for most people.

It continues to baffle me that Osprey have never seen fit to do a series specifically on vehicle markings. There's clearly a market for it.