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Author Topic: British Tank Markings - A Guide  (Read 23437 times)

Offline Eclaireur

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 244
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #75 on: July 05, 2020, 10:56:58 AM »
Some admirable detective wok there Etranger  :)
The attachment to 1st AD underwrites the logic for keeping the armoured division AoS numbering rather than that of an independent brigade.
Your suggestion that the tank could have been passed on from 8th RTR, hence the name Hood, also makes very good sense. That '67' would be a hasty repainting and it does indeed look a little crude. Whether 8th Tanks or 46th had been taken out of the line, the 50th would however have remained the junior regiment in the brigade, using 67.
If I mange to return to the British Library in the coming months, I will see if they have Hamilton's book. It looks a little pricey to acquire for myself ...
EC   

Offline Etranger

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 917
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #76 on: July 05, 2020, 11:50:53 AM »
Some admirable detective wok there Etranger  :)
The attachment to 1st AD underwrites the logic for keeping the armoured division AoS numbering rather than that of an independent brigade.
Your suggestion that the tank could have been passed on from 8th RTR, hence the name Hood, also makes very good sense. That '67' would be a hasty repainting and it does indeed look a little crude. Whether 8th Tanks or 46th had been taken out of the line, the 50th would however have remained the junior regiment in the brigade, using 67.
If I mange to return to the British Library in the coming months, I will see if they have Hamilton's book. It looks a little pricey to acquire for myself ...
EC

;D I suspect that the return of 46 RTR was anticipated so they wouldn't bother to change them anyway. I've got a pair of 1/35th Tamiya Valentines in the stash so I've got a reason to do all this research.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 11:52:45 AM by Etranger »
"It's only a flesh wound...."

Offline SquireBev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 83
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #77 on: July 05, 2020, 05:01:40 PM »
A couple of things ... firstly I gave a link to this thread to someone at Osprey and they were very positive about the possibility of a series on AFV markings. 'Pushing at an open door' was the phrase used, saying they'd already thought about it, and also a series on aviation markings. So it could happen, but with the time needed to define the spec, commission, edit, and produce, it will be a year plus.

Ooh, well that's encouraging!

I'd happily pay the usual Osprey RRP of around £20 for a decent, modern book on the subject, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Offline SquireBev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 83
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #78 on: July 05, 2020, 08:41:13 PM »
I'm trying to put together a sort of visual timeline for the independent armoured and tank brigades, to incorporate all the movement of regiments between brigades, but I'm driving myself up the wall trying to make sense of it.

Bellis' Brigades of the British Army helpfully lists all the dates that regiments joined and left the brigades, but doesn't indicate their seniority. Hodges does indicate seniority in as far as it lists the AoS numbers, but they don't always match with the other sources I've been using.

I suspect this might be a job for the summer hols. Term finishes in two weeks, so I'll be able to knuckle down to some research without constantly being badgered to do my actual job!

Offline Eclaireur

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 244
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2020, 09:28:41 AM »
@squirebev

Not sure how your visual timeline of brigades is going but the Bellis booklet on tank formations that I mentioned earlier does have something of that type in it, if you need help.

Also @etranger I noticed this ...

https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1

If you're still looking to paint those Valentines, 50th RTR with a name beginning with R and a properly painted 67 ! Not sure but is appears that the registration number might have been written across the squadron marking on the turret.
@squirebev I think you need to correct your webpage on 23rd Armoured brigade because you've got them in the 50-53 AoS sequence (an error, I imagine that came from that Flames of War article you referenced) whereas I think it's pretty clear that they adopted the Middle East numbering scheme.
EC

Offline Etranger

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 917
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2020, 09:39:32 AM »
.....

Also @etranger I noticed this ...

https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1

If you're still looking to paint those Valentines, 50th RTR with a name beginning with R and a properly painted 67 ! Not sure but is appears that the registration number might have been written across the squadron marking on the turret.

The top one is from the Tunisian sequence we discussed above. The registration number is seen in that position from time to time (on Crusaders too), but I'm don't know offhand if it can necessarily identify the unit but this should be 50RTR as you note...

Offline SquireBev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 83
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2020, 01:23:40 PM »
@squirebev

Not sure how your visual timeline of brigades is going but the Bellis booklet on tank formations that I mentioned earlier does have something of that type in it, if you need help.

Also @etranger I noticed this ...

https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1

If you're still looking to paint those Valentines, 50th RTR with a name beginning with R and a properly painted 67 ! Not sure but is appears that the registration number might have been written across the squadron marking on the turret.
@squirebev I think you need to correct your webpage on 23rd Armoured brigade because you've got them in the 50-53 AoS sequence (an error, I imagine that came from that Flames of War article you referenced) whereas I think it's pretty clear that they adopted the Middle East numbering scheme.
EC

Thanks. I do believe you're correct. This photo of a Sherman in Italy clearly shows an "86" serial:



So I'll get that updated ASAP.

On the subject of Bellis, this little beauty turned up today:



Full of useful info - bridge classifications, AoS serials for Corp and Army units, all sorts of stuff.

Offline SquireBev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 83
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2020, 10:04:46 AM »
Added Airborne Division organisation and markings: https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/europe-airborne-divisions.html





Open to feedback and corrections, as ever!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 01:55:08 PM by SquireBev »

Offline fred

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4351
    • Miniature Gaming
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2020, 04:39:57 PM »
Cracking work!

Just having a look in Bouchery, had he doesn't list any of the differences between 1st and 6th AB you have, other than the recce regts, where he has 79 (in blue on maroon) for 6th Armoured Recce. His list which is titled as to imply for both AB divisions but basically follows your 6th AB values. I'm more inclined to believe you have done further research to split out the serials between the two divisions.

He does have the following additional ones
40 on blue red blue - RAOC HQ
and the following on REME blue, yellow, red,  47, 81, 85, 87 and 94, all as Airlanding Light Detachment REME

I'm just copying these - I don't know any more than that !

Offline SquireBev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 83
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2020, 04:50:24 PM »
Thanks fred.

As ever, I'm wading through conflicting sources and trying to reconcile the differences as best I can. Bellis seems to concur with Bouchery that both divisions used the same serials, but Hodges & Taylor disagree.

I've just updated both diagrams again, based on a couple of pages that I've been sent from Rob van Meel's British Airborne Jeeps: Modifications and Markings, although he freely admits that a lot of the numbers he's assigned to the 6th Airborne are a "calcuated guess", so I've largely left them alone!



« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 05:19:50 PM by SquireBev »

Offline Eclaireur

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 244
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2020, 07:31:19 AM »
Bellis, it's clear, was a weapons grade anorak. Thank heavens for people like him!

Offline SquireBev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 83
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2020, 03:52:05 PM »
Bellis, it's clear, was a weapons grade anorak. Thank heavens for people like him!

Indeed. We'd be lost without anoraks!

Anyway, I've finally got somewhere with the Independent Armoured Brigade timeline...

« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 10:05:53 PM by SquireBev »

Offline Jemima Fawr

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1733
    • Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2020, 05:07:16 AM »
That is a thing of true beauty  :-*

One oddball for you: 'A' Squadron 43 Recce Regiment (43 (Wessex) Div) had a different AoS sign to the rest of the regiment, who had the usual '41' on sky blue over green.  'A' Squadron was lost at sea en route to Normandy and was replaced wholesale from another regiment in the UK.  The new 'A' Sqn joined the regiment toward the end of the Normandy Campaign and had an AoS consisting of a diagonally-split bright green/yellow square (the colours of the Recce Corps) with '41' in black.
Suffering from insomnia?  Too much excitement in your life?  Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog might be just the solution you've been looking for: www.jemimafawr.co.uk

Offline fred

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4351
    • Miniature Gaming
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2020, 08:02:00 AM »
Very impressive work

Offline SquireBev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 83
Re: British Tank Markings - A Guide
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2020, 01:53:00 PM »
And now, Corps Troops AoS serials, based on info in 21st Army Group Organisation & Markings by Bellis.

https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/europe-higher-formation-organisation.html

« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 03:43:13 PM by SquireBev »

 

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