*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 10:54:54 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1686462
  • Total Topics: 118101
  • Online Today: 857
  • Online Ever: 2235
  • (October 29, 2023, 12:32:45 AM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?  (Read 6061 times)

Offline Fremitus Borealis

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 396
  • Magister Discipulorum
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2020, 10:35:54 PM »
Interesting...

I always forget how amazing some of the artwork for children's books used to be  :o
"Nice try, history; better luck next year."

Offline AdamPHayes

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 600
    • Wargame Warrior
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2020, 11:40:17 AM »
Part of the "fun" of this army is that the available evidence is so sketchy you can make up your own mind and it is very hard for anyone to criticise. I have a pack of the Black Tree Design Scythian infantry set aside to be local levies / Hillmen in my army, and I'll probably give them theuros type shields as there are at least a few representations of those.

The Essex range of figures is very nice but a bit limited. Only one variant for each figure code but  they do follow the old WRG Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars very faithfully. Duncan Head has issued a few corrections to this tome, one of which discredits the bare-headed Iranian heavy cavalryman. Arguably one of the most important parts of the army... The sculptor is not the usual Essex style so is a lot less cartoony than some of their ancients.

I thoroughly enjoyed making my own unique regiments for my Greco-Bactrians. I grabbed a cheap box of Victrix Theban hoplites when I saw it, as the distinctive Boeotian helmet type seems to have been a favourite for the Hellenistic part of the army. Other useful bits came from the old Wargames Factory Persians and Numidians plastics.


(some guardsmen based on a brooch from the Tillya Tepe Necropolis)

I am currently having a go at making some Indians a bit more like the Achaemenids represented the Gandarans and Hindush rather than the later look that most wargames figures depict. A box of Perry Mahdists has been sacrificed to this cause along with weapons and heads from various sources.

Offline Fremitus Borealis

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 396
  • Magister Discipulorum
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2020, 12:24:59 PM »
Adam, very nice!

Yeah speaking of the "discredited" cavalry, I recently ordered a bunch of cavalry figures from Essex (as I'd gotten a deal on like 30 Essex horses from eBay), and was disheartened to find that the Bactrian "guard" cavalry (or whatever they call it) is those goofy looking bare-headed guys. There are no images of most of their "Bactrian" stuff on the website, alas, so I was basing my purchase of those handful of figures on some images I'd found online (maybe from Jeff Jonas' site? Can't remember), which showed them with the Boeotian helmet. They look so goofy I'm not even going to try to salvage their heads; I've picked up a sprue of Victrix Thebans and they'll get decapitated as soon as I get around to it  :D

Speaking of which, I had some older Ral Partha Bactrian cavalry that were apparently also based on that AMPW image, but those were easy enough to convert with some heads/helmets from the Warlord (Immortal?) hoplites.

Finally, in that Essex order, I also picked up a few variations of Companion Cavalry that I think I can use for the same unit: just throw on some Green Stuff beards on a couple of them, and figure out how to add a bow/bow-case (I assume Green Stuff is gonna have to work here, but we'll see).

ANYWAY, as for the infantry: thanks for the recommendations, it's really helpful. I'm always wary of getting into "ahhh, f*$@ it!" mode when there's little evidence and just using whatever, since obviously the cultural difference between, say, Numidia and the Hindu Kush was rather profound. So, it's good to know what may and may not work!

Speaking of which, do you happen to have any images handy of the Essex Bactrian infantry range? I obviously won't be picking up anything else sight unseen again :D

Offline bluewillow

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2280
  • Bluewillow- Matthew Williamson
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2020, 12:36:24 PM »
I used crusader and gripping beast for my hill tribesmen



More images here
http://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/2011/04/leucosyri-hill-tribesmen.html?m=0


Cheers
Matt

« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 10:27:16 PM by bluewillow »

Offline tallyho

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 45
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2020, 01:37:45 PM »
Don't you love how gamers confidently state how people thousands of years ago dressed.

Most wargames ranges are works of total guess work and fantasy, and the idea thousands of men all wore the same identical hat or whatever is just silly.

Use whatever looks good to you, because nobody can tell you what they wore.

Offline Jjonas

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 421
  • Ancient Modeler
    • Ancient Hellenistic Battles mostly
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2020, 05:35:02 PM »
Part of the "fun" of this army is that the available evidence is so sketchy you can make up your own mind and it is very hard for anyone to criticise. I have a pack of the Black Tree Design Scythian infantry set aside to be local levies / Hillmen in my army, and I'll probably give them theuros type shields as there are at least a few representations of those.

Yes- The Bactrians are under represented. Sources are limited. The facts are sketchy at best. Plus, the Bactrian/Indo Greeks cover a lot of ground from the 250ish BC to AD 100  timeframe. It is difficult to see how armies evolved from Persian Empire to Hellenistic then back to localized feudal city states.

My guess is the reliance on pikemen is something that reduces swiftly due to the lack of materials to make pikes. When you look at Afghanistan and Sogdiana Bactria there are forests, but could they make pikes out of them? In 220's BC the Spartans had to borrow money from the Ptolemies to have Macedonian shields and pikes to be sent in the mail order for their revolt.

So I always choose to minimize pikemen. Obviously cavalry are the decisive forces as revealed in Cyrus', Alexander's, and Antiochus' campaigns in the region. Alexander's campaign was a constant cavalry (and mounted infantry) chase. The poor bloody infantry being mostly needed to man the siege towers. Coenus and Alexander and the other flying columns of Macedonians doing their search and destroy sweeps of mountain valleys would no doubt be leaving the phalanxes just hustling in the dust miles behind the action.

The fact that most of the Hellenistic settlers (forced veterans mustered out in the region) were Greeks. Some were Thracian, some were Illyrians left behind in Drangiana, Margiana, Arachosia, and Aria They tried to run home but were turned back by Perdikkas and other Successors.

It would seem the hoplite would be the most common armament with various sized shields and more styled after hypaspists than rigid phalanx dwellers. When the common militia/citizen forces switched to thureos is a squishy subject- but probably after 250 BC is as good a guess as I would land.

Even Alexander's army almost immediately recruited horse and foot allies (from the above satrapies and subdued Bactrians) into his frontier campaign. Most of the archers in sieges are non descript locals. The Core Royal column under Alexander had the elites- the Agrianians and the Cretan archers, plus the Royal Companions, and Hypaspists. The other columns had the rest of the army broken up into chunks and filled out with many local troops from neighboring satraps.

So my conclusion is the earliest Bactrian armies would follow the Alexandrian model, and gradually slip into different styles of 'heavy' infantry (if any remain except as garrisons). Local city based Hellenistic core troops with outsider allies of various groups of Bactrians and Sogdians, and the odd allied tribe of Dahae. The shift of the Bactrian heavy cavalry to spear and bow armed seems like a necessary evolution for them.

The armies that marched across the Indus and pushed into India would seem to be even more blended and less Hellenistic in style, but again we have a lot of coin hoards but little other source detail to go on.

And I do like those conversions of Victrix hoplites to a mixed group. Seems Bactrian-ish to me.

What does the phalanx do against the horse archers?



JJonas

Offline AdamPHayes

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 600
    • Wargame Warrior
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2020, 06:06:33 PM »

What does the phalanx do against the horse archers?

Pay them to go away generally!  ;)

I only have a few of the Essex Bactrians and none of the wild and woolly types. I will try to remember to take some pics of their display figures the next time I am passing their warehouse.

The theurophoroi  on the right is an Essex Bactrian, next to him one of their "standard" Hellenistic pikemen.



The middle chap is a Newline Skythian and the next one to the left is a Black Tree Design version. At the left hand end is a Victrix Carthaginian as a scale comparison...

I did the same as FB and converted the bare-headed cavalry figures with the firm application of a pair of clippers.



Any Hellenistic cavalry can become Easterners with the addition of a bowcase and usefully 1st Corps sell their ones separately: https://1stcorps.co.uk/product/persian-bowcase/
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 07:38:47 PM by AdamPHayes »

Offline Fremitus Borealis

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 396
  • Magister Discipulorum
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2020, 09:27:24 PM »
Thanks for the responses, guys!

@Adam: Thanks for the tip on 1st Corps! I'd ordered from them before but never noticed they sold the bowcases! I picked those up......as well as a few other things which I'll probably mention in another thread, just to make the shipping cost worth it :D I did however include some "Persian javelin men with wicker shield" which should help my "eastern infantry" quandry; likewise I tossed in some "helots", as they look fairly generic, and with a wicker shield they'd basically look like every other "broke eastern Mediterranean dirt-farming peasant infantry"  lol

Also, thanks for the image! I might pick up some of the "Bactrian thureophoroi" at some point, though to be fair I probably have enough bits at this point to make some of my own... we'll see!

@Jeff: Thanks for the lengthy, thinky post! I'm pretty sure I've read every ancient literary source there is on the Greco-Bactrian military, because, welll... yeah.... it's scant. Pretty much most of the knowledge we have is based on coinage, which tends to be both idealized and archaicizing, so it's often not the best source for realistic evidence. A bit like assuming Augustus had all his teeth and a six-pack of abs in his 60s because that's how he looked in statues!

@Tallyho: Yeah, a frequent concern of mine! I agree it's silly to think almost any ancient army had anything approaching Napoleonic-level uniformity, which is what we usually see. I've gradually come to accept the conceit as just part of the deal, but I do try in my own (slowly-built) army to include as much variation as I can.

@Matt: That's a beautiful unit! Definitely going to have to use that as inspiration going forward :)

Offline AdamPHayes

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 600
    • Wargame Warrior
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2020, 06:06:56 PM »
You inspired me to finish off my Bactrian Greek  "foot Agema" unit...



Chat about it's origins here.

Offline Fremitus Borealis

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 396
  • Magister Discipulorum
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2020, 11:12:33 PM »
Very cool! I've thought of building something along these lines, as well, but it's on the back burner for two reasons: 1) as you mention in your blog, there's not a ton of evidence for them, even though there should be... and 2) as I've mentioned before, I'm basing everything on Hail Caesar rules, which does not include anything about the Bactrian Agema in the official army list. So I had in the back of my mind maybe including a few agema-looking guys with a foot general as part of a commander unit. There are other types of units where there is a roughly comparable one in the HC army list where I can "justify it". Like, for the Greco-Bactrians they have a Saka heavy cavalry unit with bows and kontos, so I feel fine making a group of "Bactrian heavy horse archers" or whatever (similar to another unit you were kitbashing on your blog).... but there's just nothing super close on the infantry end. It's like phalangites.... and then light troops/skirmishers. Of course in the end, who knows when I'd ever get to play a game to begin with, so I'm basically hobbying for its own sake at present, so... I guess I can just make whatever I like, right? :D

Offline AdamPHayes

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 600
    • Wargame Warrior
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2020, 10:22:37 PM »
Exactly, it’s a hobby we can pursue it as we like for entirely our own satisfaction.  I find it interesting that as wargamers we are in a different position to historians and academics. They can speculate about ancient armies but end up with a “don’t know.”  We can’t just leave a gap on the battlefield however so have to bite the bullet and make a decision. Good fun debating the possibilities as well very often.

Offline Fremitus Borealis

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 396
  • Magister Discipulorum
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2020, 10:40:11 PM »
Exactly!

Gotta say, this conversation is now making me want to work on that command unit lol

Offline Fremitus Borealis

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 396
  • Magister Discipulorum
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2020, 02:53:31 AM »
Update: I'm definitely "working on" the command unit idea now, so thanks, Adam  lol  I mean, it's one of the 15 concurrent projects, but still.....

Also gonna go ahead and steal your idea for creating a separate agema unit. Hail Caesar doesn't have a specific bit in the army list for a Bactrian agema unit, but I guess worst-case they'd have similar stats as hoplites, right? Either way, who knows when I'll even be able to start playing with other humans, anyway, so.... But yeah, I figure I'll go for about 24 figures in the unit (3 rows of 8). The Victrix Thebans box is good for like 16 guys in breastplates I think; looking for other options for the next 8 just to vary things a bit.

Oh, and, speaking of the original idea for the thread (dirt-farming peasant infantry :D )-- This recent thread https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=127156.0 got me thinking about all this again. And I was reminded of a unit from a mod for Rome II: Total War that could be nice and do-able by mixing the linothoraxed Victrix Thebans with some of the Wargames Atlantic Persians (of which I am now the proud owner of three boxes :D ), and miscellaneous head and shield swaps...


Offline AdamPHayes

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 600
    • Wargame Warrior
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2020, 06:49:28 AM »
Looking forward to seeing what you create. I love the sort of units that you have in an army that you can plug into the line and just pray that you don’t get attacked there! Every now and then they will do something amazing....(sometimes in a good way 🙂)

Offline Fremitus Borealis

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 396
  • Magister Discipulorum
Re: What to use for "Eastern infantry" for Seleucids/Greco-Bactrians?
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2020, 10:55:55 PM »
Looking forward to seeing what you create. I love the sort of units that you have in an army that you can plug into the line and just pray that you don’t get attacked there! Every now and then they will do something amazing....(sometimes in a good way 🙂)

Yeah! Who knows when I'll ever actually get it done, but still. I'm loving the idea right now :D Wondering if I can't find some "extras" with pants, just so I don't have to make them all from green stuff  lol

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
18 Replies
6290 Views
Last post August 11, 2009, 07:17:30 PM
by Ignatieff
9 Replies
5780 Views
Last post August 25, 2014, 11:02:29 AM
by paul c
7 Replies
4109 Views
Last post January 03, 2015, 03:16:41 PM
by Galloping Major
13 Replies
1981 Views
Last post January 26, 2017, 10:31:16 AM
by grant
4 Replies
1532 Views
Last post April 24, 2017, 06:23:13 PM
by JamesValentine