British Vietnam War 1945?

[10thMountain]

Hello,
       I was wondering if anyone has gamed the British Vietminh War 1945-1946. I saw a video on youtube that has peeked my interest.
Thank you

[Sapper]

Hi

Take a look at the www.orkneywargames.com site.  On there you will find a game report dated 6th April 2020 entitled "Ambush on the Tu Duam Road 1945" which features a VietMinh ambush on a column containing General Gracey.

Enjoy

Sapper

[JohnFoA]

To fight Vietnam in 1945 you need

Empire Jungle troops with 44 pattern webbing, MK1 No3 rifle, Bren and Sten. Vickers MMG.  Both 2" & 3" mortars. Some Artillery (25pdr or 3.7"mountain). Broad brimmed hat or tin helmet with wide netting. All Indian or Gurkha troops, with British Officers. No British Infantry Regts possibly RN landing party/escort and definitely some RAF Regt (2 sqdns IIRC) at Tan Son  Nhut airport.

Japanese infantry with skeleton webbing. Rifle/LMG/GL type 89(?).

For Viet Minh any figures with local clothing or uniform shirt and shorts in Khaki Drill. Either ex-French rifle (M1902 fusil Indochinois (I shorten this) or ex-Japanese. Possibly some Sten and Bren (ex-Chinese Nationalist out of Canada in 8mm Mauser). Some hand weapons only and Grenades.

Japanese fought on both sides and Viet Minh maybe led by Japanese officer "advisor".

20th Indian Div units had most standard vehicles, no mules were shipped. Unusual vehicle was Coventry Arms Cars of Indian 16th light Cav.

Hope this helps.

Any skirmish game rules. Will do.

Cheers

John

[carlos marighela]

Which raises the natural question.. who has gamed the Battle of Surabaya, or for that matter, who has gamed the fighting between the British and EAM-ELAS in Athens in late 1944?*

Inquiring minds must know.

* Warning: Contains paras and Sherman tanks.

[Rick F]

If you can get a copy of this there's a very interesting section on the RAF Regiment involvement in Vietnam, no major battles, but some shooty stuff and joint patrols with the Japanese!

[Plynkes]

Was it Mark Felton? If so I saw that video too. I like his channel. Lots of interesting little 10-minute videos telling me stuff I didn't know about WW2.

There was one about Italian troops stationed in China after Italy surrendered and switched sides the other day. Fascinating stuff. It did actually come to blows in at least one place, which was something I didn't know.

[Etranger]

What JonFoA said. Some interesting OOB are possible. How about a Gurkha company with a Japanese platoon attached against OSS equipped Viet Minh?

[Sapper]

JohnFoA

As I understand it, the 16th (Indian) Cavalry Regiment was NOT equipped with Coventry Armoured Cars, but rather with Daimlers and Humbers.  The Coventry was designed to be a replacement for both these, but the war ended shortly after the initial production run was completed.  Subsequent orders were cancelled.  I believe the French bought up the initial production run of the Coventry Armoured Cars (maybe around 100 vehicles), but found the vehicle was too heavy (at around 11.5 tons) for their requirement in Indochina. and it was gradually withdrawn from service, to be replaced by the American M8 Greyhound Armoured Car which was more than 2,5 tons lighter. By 1953-54, Some 600 M8/M20 cars were in French service.  Although the Coventry cars were withdrawn, their turrets were widely used on the river monitors of the French riverine Dinassault units, and some were used on the blockhouses of the de Lattre line.  There is a well know photograph of the 16th's Humber cars driving on parade through Saigon with Union flags draped over the front.

Sapper

[10thMountain]

Sounds good, thank you.

[Jemima Fawr]

In Burma the 16th Light Cavalry's 'Humbers' mostly appear to have been Foxes (identical to a Humber Mk III, but mechanically different and armed with Browning .50 & .30 Cal instead of Besa 15mm & 7.92mm). I've no idea if this was still the case in Vietnam.

I once read of the Gurkhas in Vietnam being equipped with 3.5-inch Super-Bazookas rather than PIATs, with one being used to blow the doors off a fortified building, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.

[Sapper]

Hi Jemima

You could well be right in that the Humbers used in Indochina are actually Foxes.  I can only find one photograph of three cars on a parade in Saigon, and on closer examination, they do look like they are Browning armed.  Unfortunately all the accounts I've read just refer to "Humbers" !!!  Do you know if there is Regimental History for the 16th (Indian) Light Cavalry Regiment ?

Certainly the cars did sterling work in supporting the three infantry Brigades of the 20th (Indian) Division in combating the Vietminh in the Saigon area.

Sapper

[Sapper]

Hi Jemima

I've had a re-think, and wonder if the Armoured Cars were in fact Humber MkIVs ?

Sapper

[Jemima Fawr]

Sorry, my mistake.  I was thinking of the 11th PAVO, not the 16th LC. They had 'Humbers', describing them as making excellent regiment and squadron command cars, as they had a three man turret and being armed with Browning MGs, meant that the third seat in the turret could be taken by a dedicated radio operator instead of a loader.  That might mean Humber Mk III, but the mention of Brownings suggests Fox.

There is a regimental history for 16th LC by Lt Col Proudfoot, but I've never managed to get hold of a copy.  Most of the info comes from Sandhu's history of the Indian Armoured Corps and various odds and sods.  The Indian Armoured Corps did certainly receive some Mk IVs and the 16th LC is described as having a mixed establishment of Daimlers and Humbers (7th KGVO and 11th PAVO are described as 'all-Daimler', though the PAVO clearly had some 'Humbers' as command cars, as mentioned above).  A photo of a 16th LC squadron column near Meiktila shows a wall of Daimlers, which would suggest that the Humbers and Daimlers were in distinct squadrons rather than mixed, but other than that I've not got a lot, sorry.

Something else worth mentioning is that the 16th LC in Burma operated with a mixed squadron organisation of 2x Armoured Car Troops, three Jeep Troops and a Mortar Troop (the latter having SP 3-inch mortars mounted in India Pattern Wheeled Carriers).  They were still using this organisation in July 1944, so I wonder if they were still organised like this when transferred to Vietnam?

Another curious nugget of info is that the 7th Light Cavalry in 1944 is listed as having 13x Daimler Armoured Cars, 4x Lynx Scout Cars and 18x Fox Armoured Cars on strength at Imphal.  However, aside from some scout cars in the Recce Troop, the 7th Light Cavalry didn't operate armoured cars!  I can only assume that the unit they belonged to was mis-identified, or they were being maintained by 7th Light Cavalry for another unit?

[commissarmoody]

Two other decent books that cover the end or war/post war era in the East Asian/Pasicfic conflict are. Mountbatten's Samurai: Imperial Japanese Army and Navy Forces under British Control in Southeast Asia, 1945-1948, and In the Ruins of Empire: The Japanese Surrender and the Battle for Postwar Asia.

[Sapper]

Hi Jemima

The 16th (Indian) Light Cavalry were an Army level asset, being from the 14th Army.  I would suggest that they were allocated to Gracey's 20th (Indian) Division to give him some (light) armoured support - useful in dealing with the numerous roadblocks set up by the Vietminh.  In all of the accounts I have read, only B Squadron of the Regiment is mentioned, and I wonder if only this one Squadron was deployed to French Indochina.  The one photograph I have been able to locate clearly shows the B squadron identification square on the side of the Humber turrets.  I also wonder if B Squadron only took Mk IV cars with them as they were equipped with the more powerful (and reliable) 37mm main gun.  The more I look at the photo of the Humbers in Saigon, the more convinced I am that they are indeed Mk IVs.

I game the Indochina war, including the early days in September/October 1945.  I have British Spitfires and Mosquitos and a Japanese Oscar, all in French markings, supporting platoons of Sikhs, Ghurkhas, and Japanese.  I have even recreated the Cambodian Composite Squadron equipped with captured Japanese tanks.  I am working on Lt Col Dewey's OSS detachment (as mentioned by Etranger in one of the posts above). 

So, it's nice to see this little known episode discussed on the Forum.

Sapper