British Vietnam War 1945?

[Jemima Fawr]

Ah that's interesting.  Yes, if they just took one squadron they'd probably be able to rearrange it as they saw fit by taking elements from other squadrons.

I agree that Humber IVs would be a better tactical choice, as the 37mm had a better (and more readily available) HE round than the Daimler's 2pdr and was equipped with canister rounds, which proved most useful in Burma (for clearing vegetation to open lines of fire and expose bunkers, as well as dealing with infantry in the open). 

[Jemima Fawr]

Chris Kempton's 'Loyalty and Honour' doesn't go into any detail re Vietnam beyond listing the dates and units deployed to Vietnam, but it does say that the entire 16th Light Cavalry was assigned to 20th Division from October 1945 to February 1946.  The full orbat looks like this:

32 Bde (left at the end of Dec 45)
80 Bde (left Jan 46)
100 Bde (left between 28 Jan and 7 Feb 46)
16th Light Cavalry Regt
114 Field Regt RA (25pdr)
23 Mountain Regt RIA (3.7-inch Mountain Howitzer)
MG Bn/9th Jat Regt (Div MG Bn)
2/8th Punjab Regt (Div Recce Bn - i.e. infantry scout battalion with minimal heavy weapons)
9/12th Frontier Force Regt (Div Defence Bn)
92 Fd Coy Royal Bombay Sappers & Miners IE
422 Fd Coy QVO Madras Sappers & Miners IE
481 Fd Coy Royal Bombay Sappers & Miners IE
332 Fd Park Coy KGO Bengal Sappers & Miners IE
Plus all the Signals, IASC, IAOC, IEME, IAMC, etc elements

[Rick F]

Don't forget 2963 and 2967 Sqns RAF Regiment

[Jemima Fawr]

Don't forget 2963 and 2967 Sqns RAF Regiment

They weren't on 20th Indian Division's books.   

And they were probably trying to keep well away from the frightful oiks anyway... 

[JohnFoA]

Hi all

Sorry been away - and other feeble excuses.  Sapper, as supported you're quite right the Coventry came later and not with Indian troops, however two things occur to me.  Somewhere I read that the Rootes group managed to flog some of these lumps to the Indians directly, most of rest went to French. So maybe some found their way from there.  Although as Indian government wanted to impound stuff being used in a re-colonisation conflict maybe not.

Also and this I ask to Jemima There are many photos of Humber S/C in French service but no A/C so were they the only vehicles which Expeditionary Force 20 took away?  Cos everything else inc 3.7" and 25pdr guns seem to have been left.

I would love to know the orbat of the RAF Regt Sqdns - I have two possible three in theatre.  The first in was an LAA unit from a Burma/Thailand staging airfield.  On indication if they took 20mmAAA but deployed as infantry off an assualt landing, being warmly greeted by the already resident and nervous erks.  In a scene which was to be reflected in the USMC coming ashore some years later.

Must review the posts but thanks for the alternative  16th Lt Cav organisation.

I have developed a real enthusiasm for this period.  Hummmmm figures???

There is an account of a Gurkha unit attacking a French fort held by VietMinh.  Having been replused on day one the story suggests they brought up a bazooka on second day.  Blew in door, charged in with drawn Kukri and dispatched the resident garrison.

This is really interesting.  Thanks for the posts.

[JohnFoA]

So I was intrigued by reference to Fox A/C and a quick google (see Wiki) suggests the Dutch bought 39 Foxes but these were equipped with Humber MkIV turret.  For a further twist on identification, did that happen elsewhere?

In modified TO&E mentioned Armed Car Tps.  Where these just A/C or mix A/C and S/C.  How where the jeeps crewed and equipped?  Really interesting.  The Div Recce regt. Any armoured vehicles?  And how many IP carriers?  That's another vehicle you don't see French with.

[JohnFoA]

This is what I have on RAF elements


Two Headquarters formed in Sept 45

At Control Commission, Saigon under AC W. Cheshire 

908 Wing at Tan Son Nhut airfield – Gp Capt F.C. Sturgiss

These had ‘confusing’ responsibilities and were shortly thereafter combined into Air HQ French Indochina, formed 1 Oct 45, based at RAF Saigon (Tan Son Nhut airfield), although this was still often referred to as 908 Wing

 

Air units known:

273 Sqdn arrived 19th September flying Spitfires Mk VIII, replaced with Mk XIV in early November; visual reconnaissance and interdiction

Flight from 684 Sqdn with Mosquito PR.XXXIV flying Photo-recon and mapping.

Air lift Squadrons, (62, 194, 267, of 345 Wing) based in Siam with Dakotas (approx. 70 a/c)

Air Traffic Control, Ground support and cargo handling units.

98 MFCU

917 ALG

3209 Servicing Commando

Detachment RAF Regiment (arrived 1st Oct)

1307 Wing HQ (Wing Cmdr W.R. Allen)

2963 (LAA) Sqdn – deployed as infantry.  Sqdn Ldr H.D. Ward, WIA 3rd Oct. Flt Lt A.A. Wyatt assumed command

2967 (Field) Squadron1 – follow up group by mid-Oct

Gremlin Task Force – ex-IJAF flying under RAF command.

Ki-21 Sally, Ki-36 Ida, Ki-46 Dinah, Ki-48 Lily, Ki-54 Hickory, Ki-57 Topsy, Ki-67 Peggy, Ki-79, L2D2 Tabby

 

Note: 

1.   2945 Sqn RAF Regiment in High Stakes, p19

 

Operations

Mk VIIIs were handed over to local French AF, while awaiting equipment (Spitfire IXs) from France, who from local resources (despite typically Gallic assurances to the contrary) could neither supply sufficient trained pilots nor correctly service the aircraft resulting in significant operational issues

Control Commission (Gen Gracey) imposed NW India style rules of engagement on ground attack.  That is once hostiles are identified (over-flown) there must be a leaflet drop warning of imminent air attack.  Leaflets were dropped and planes armed for ground attack on several occasions. However this procedure was enough to cause Viet Minh units to disperse without attack with one exception.   

3 x Spitfire XIVs fly one ground attack mission 11th Dec in support of isolated French force NE of Ban Me Thout – there being no French a/c operationally available (see note above).

Gremlin Task Force:  US policies on return/post-war use of lend-lease equipment meant many Dakotas were swiftly deleted from RAF resources.  AC Cheshire resorted to ‘conscripting’ IJAF personnel and equipment.  Rising Sun repainted with RAF roundels and available a/c flew transport all over British theatre of operations including Siam and even Singapore.  They had no R/T with ATC which caused some consternation particularly with destination airfields.

2963 Sqdn reinforced airfield personnel consisting of a group of RAF advance parties totalling 150 Officers and men along with 2 Rifle Coys of (17th) Dogras and a Japanese Bn (approx. 1000 of whom only 300 were armed).

RAF Saigon was disbanded 14 February 1946, all personnel withdrawn except for some ATC staff who remained to handle Military transports for ‘a few’ months

[Jemima Fawr]

So I was intrigued by reference to Fox A/C and a quick google (see Wiki) suggests the Dutch bought 39 Foxes but these were equipped with Humber MkIV turret.  For a further twist on identification, did that happen elsewhere?

There was a plan to build the Fox Mk II as a Ford-based Humber Mk IV, but in the event the Canadian Army just bought Humber Mk IVs off the peg and so the plan was shelved.  Yes, the 'Overvalwagen' website had some info on the converted Foxes.  I've not heard of it happening elsewhere, but I've no idea how you'd be able to tell the difference by just looking at them.

[Jemima Fawr]

Excellent RAF info.  One picture that always sticks in my mind is a famous colour (not colourised) photo of a couple of Japanese pilots bowing.  At first glance it's a WW2 photo of a couple of Kamikazes about to head off on their one and only mission for the Emperor, but there is an accompanying photo taken from a different angle, showing that they're bowing to an RAF senior officer (before taking off for a mission over Vietnam)!

[Jemima Fawr]

Re Humber Scout Cars; I've never found any evidence that they were used in Burma, so I guess the ones in Vietnam came straight from Europe?  In Europe the standard liaison car was the Humber Scout Car, but the Armoured and Armoured Car Regiments in Burma tended to use Dingo Scout Cars, Lynx Scout Cars, India Pattern Wheeled Carriers and/or unarmoured Jeeps in that role.

RAF Regiment Rifle Squadrons were basically a typical British 'triangular' infantry company, with three 'Flights' (Platoons), each of three Sections.  Each Section had up to ten men and included a Bren LMG.  Each Flight usually had a PIAT and 2-inch mortar.  At Squadron Level there was then a Support Flight with 4x 3-inch Mortars.  Motor Transport allocation varied.  Some were fully motorised, while others had enough MT for the Sqn HQ, Support Flt and sufficient troop transports to lift one Flt at a time.

RAF Regiment Light AA Squadrons had three Flights, each of 4x LAA Guns.  In NW Europe these were all 40mm Bofors Guns, but various types of 20mm LAA were used elsewhere and some squadrons had mixed types (e.g. two 20mm Flts and one 40mm Flt).

For the sake of completeness: RAF Regiment Armoured Squadrons had three Flights, each of 6x Light Recce Cars.  In NW Europe these were all Humber LRCs, but other types such as Otter, Morris, Beaverette and Marmon-Herrington were used elsewhere at various times.

Squadrons would usually operate under a Wing HQ, which operated in much the same way as an infantry battalion HQ.

[Jemima Fawr]

Oh yeas, that fort incident was the one I'd read about, involving a 3.5-inch (Super) Bazooka... Does anyone know if these were available in 1945?!  My guess is that it was a mis-described PIAT...?

[Etranger]

I have developed a real enthusiasm for this period.  Hummmmm figures???

There is an account of a Gurkha unit attacking a French fort held by VietMinh.  Having been replused on day one the story suggests they brought up a bazooka on second day.  Blew in door, charged in with drawn Kukri and dispatched the resident garrison.

Easy enough in 15mm. Between Peter Pig and Eureka just about everything is covered figure wise & really the only vehicle not available in 15mm  is the Coventry AC, provided you're happy to modify French kit to Indochina pattern (casemated UE carriers). It exists in 20mm though.

Gurkhas in JG from Eureka, British/Sikhs from either Eureka's LW Australians or PP's 14th army range, with headswaps for the sikhs from PP's individual head range. French colonial troops are a bit more of a fudge but the real ones had a right old mixture of equipment anyway, so I use 8th Army figures (ie khaki drill) leavened with US figures - the PP and Eureka USMC work well.

Japanese come from the same sources. 'Early' Viet Minh are a slight challenge due to the lack of uniforms, but the PP SCW range provides figures in overalls and civilian dress, augmented by the various partisan and resistance figures from PP, Eureka & FOW, with some headswaps to 'Orientalise' some figures. The Eureka VM are great from c1950 onwards, when the Communist Chinese began to supply a lot of equipment.

I'd look at the equivalent ranges in 20mm or 28mm for such figures.

[JohnFoA]

Thought I could add info I have on Royal Navy deployment in Sept 1945



 RN
Wednesday 26th September 1945 RN force supporting Op MASTERDOM released
from Op ZIPPER sails from Singapore Roads, arrives Cap St Jaques 29th Sept.
o HMS Waveney River Class Frigate
▪ SO Advance Group W2 (Captain T Ian Scott-Bell RN, embarked)
o Force 12 (some sources suggest the two DDs did not sail but only M/S)
▪ HMS Vigilant – V class DD leader, 4 x single 4.7” QF; 1 x twin
40mm Bofors; 6 x Oerlikon 20mm, 2 x 2, 2 x 1; 2 x quad 21” TT
▪ HMS Verulam – V class DD, armed as Vigilant, above
▪ 8 or 9 x BYMS – Yard minesweepers, 1 x 3”, 2 x 1 20mm
o HM Survey Ship Challenger – war duties as convoy escort
o HM Repair Ship Corbrae
o LCI(L) x 3
▪ 4 Lost, in Far East during RN service 29 March 46
▪ 166 Returned to USN 14 March 1946
▪ 252 Returned to USN 13 February 1946
o MV BELA Tanker – Shell Tankers UK – IMO1180549
Used in early French operations
o Other landing craft. At least one amphibious landing (My Tho)
▪ LST HMS 3037 (Mk3 RN pattern) is mentioned; fate - sold 1946.
o Other vessels are acquired:
▪ 2 x LST (Mk2 USN pattern)
• LST 382 – transferred to France 23/1/48 direct from RN
• LST 347 – returned to USN & transferred to France 1/48
Also
8 x LCI (L) (no pennant numbers given).
▪ ex-IJN various small craft – Coaster, launches, sampans and
junks

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the tips on figures. I was sort of thinking of commissioning some French Union Forces.

[Paul @ Empress Miniatures]

This may be of use

[Jemima Fawr]

So I was intrigued by reference to Fox A/C and a quick google (see Wiki) suggests the Dutch bought 39 Foxes but these were equipped with Humber MkIV turret.  For a further twist on identification, did that happen elsewhere?

In modified TO&E mentioned Armed Car Tps.  Where these just A/C or mix A/C and S/C.  How where the jeeps crewed and equipped?  Really interesting.  The Div Recce regt. Any armoured vehicles?  And how many IP carriers?  That's another vehicle you don't see French with.

Hi John,

Sorry, I missed the second part of your post earlier.  The Jeeps were issued to the previously-lorried Rifle Troops.  These initially consisted of four rifle sections, but were then split into two or three smaller troops (sources vary), each of two or three sections.  I don't have exact numbers, but would guess that each section had 2-4 Jeeps.  A photo of a similar Jeep Patrol of 2 Recce Regiment in Burma shows four Jeeps with 3-4 men per Jeep.  Each Jeep is fitted with a radio, but no pintle MGs. 

I need to do more research on Armoured Car Troop organisation.  Some regiments used a mixed organisation of A/C and S/C, while others went 'heavy' with mostly A/C and I'm not sure about 16th LC.

India Pattern Wheeled Carriers were used by the Squadron Heavy/Mortar Troops as self-propelled 3-inch mortar carriers.  There were two per squadron (the regiment originally had an RHQ Mortar Troop with six, but this was split three ways and divided up between the Squadrons).  They were accompanied by Tp HQ Scout Cars.  I've not discovered any other Wheeled Carriers being used, though they may have ben clinging on as HQ or Intercom Troop cars.  Indian Engineers were still using them in Burma and Bde/Div/Corps/Army HQs were certainly still using them as liaison runabouts.

On the subject of armoured car types used by 16th Light Cavalry, I found a reference to 'B' Squadron having Daimlers in Burma and 'C' Squadron having Humbers (which were definitely Mk IVs with 37mm guns):

‘At 1430 hours on 10 April 1945, on the outskirts of Yamethin, an armoured car patrol was moving into the town from the north-west. The leading armoured car was under the command of war substantive Dafadar Badan Singh. The patrol engaged some enemy infantry in dug-in positions, when suddenly from a flank, behind cover about 200 yards away, an enemy medium tank appeared and fired with its gun at Dafadar Badan Singh’s car. These shells were close misses. Realising the position, Dafadar Badan Singh immediately closed the range by advancing towards the tank and shot at it with his 37mm gun. His first shell, which was High Explosive, blinded the enemy’s vision. His next shell, which was Armour Piercing, penetrated the enemy tank causing it to explode. The tank having been knocked-out, its crew and some infantry behind the tank broke and were engaged by Dafadar Badan Singh with his co-axial automatic. He killed nine.

By his extremely bold and quick action, taken with no regard for his personal safety, he masked and destroyed an enemy weapon which constituted a great danger to his own troop. The moral effect of the tank’s destruction turned what might have been a serious situation into a decisive success and enabled the recce. of Yameethin to be continued unhampered.’

Badan Singh was a Hindu Jat from the village of Noorpur in Hapur district, Meerut. The 16th Light Cavalry (I.A.C.), equipped with Humber Mark IV armoured cars, arrived at the Irrawaddy bridgehead in time for the advance of February 1945. Thereafter, its cars were in action daily, probing and skirmishing ahead of 17th Indian Division, and the Shermans of Probyn’s and the Deccan Horse.

Badan Singh received the riband of his M.M. from the C.-in-C. India at Rangoon on 31 July 1945, followed by the Medal itself at a Regimental Reunion Parade in March 1947.