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Author Topic: British Vietnam War 1945?  (Read 1174 times)

Offline Arrigo

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2020, 08:32:14 PM »
As for the Italians mentioned,

it was the Tientsin (Tianjin) garrison and the detachment in Peiping (Beijing). The Italian concession in Tientsin was garrisoned by troops from the  from the San Marco Naval Regiment (organized into the Battaglione Italiano in Cina provisional 1st Battalion), it included also a section of Lancia Armored Cars. Being a concession there was also an Italian police service (with local staff and Italian officers), and civilians. In Peiping there was a company sized force protecting the Italian Legation and Radio Station. After the Italian Armistice Japanese troops attacked both stations.  The company in Peiping fought back but was overwhelmed. The troops in Tientsin initially fought back, but then surrendered in large part to protect the civilians, also because they were soon without ammunitions.

I will try to dig out more information ...
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Offline JohnFoA

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2020, 10:59:33 PM »
Hi Jemina

Just reviewing the posts and I am wondering if the 16th LC did consolidate different patterns of Armoured Car in separate Companies thus
A Fox
B Humber MkIV
C Daimler

Re the Jeep Troops.  If they took just the Infantry Platoon then there's approx 39 all ranks giving three Troops of 13 in 3 or 4 Jeeps.  However this would have only one officer and I suspect that Three Troops of four Jeeps each with Officer, Havildar and two Naiks plus 12 OR. With the extra men drawn from the (again I speculate) disbanded Scout Car teams.  And with these disbanded (or moved into HQ Troops and maybe in support of Mortar detachments) it would mean the Armoured Car Troops were each four A/C.

Sapper & Jemima
Re the Coventry A/C and Humber S/C.  I  have found an old French magazine article about the 5th Cuirassiers (The Royal Polish) and these guys were equipped with Humber and Coventry (78 of latter) but these were issued over a period mid-46 to late 47.  So probably bought and shipped direct form UK, however the article does suggest some of these vehicles came from Burma, without specifying which..

Cheers  John
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Online carlos marighela

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2020, 11:23:58 PM »
The War Wheels website has reprinted the notations against type from the Half Yearly Reports on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps. The info is per 31 May, 1945. It details production and in service numbers. the relevant section on the Coventry reads as follows:

4. Coventry I

"This armoured car mounts a 2pr and 7.92mm Besa coaxially, and weighs 11.2 tons. It carries a crew of 4. Reliability Trials have been carried out with a Pilot Model at F.V.P.E., and offensive and defensive firing trials have been held at E.W.(G) Lulworth and S. of E. Ranges Shoeburyness respectively. Modifications recommended as a result of reliability and Firing Trials are being incorporated in production vehicles.

Orders 300 Production 175

It has been decided that only 300 Coventry I’s will be produced. It was originally intended that these cars would replace Staghounds as the RHQ and Squadron H.Q. vehicles, in Armd Car Regiments. 280 Coventry I’s have been allocated to the French Army."


Sometimes referred to as the Humber-Daimler Armoured Car in earlier reports but looking like a bigger Daimler, these cars were not to see much British use with most going to the French who used them in Indo China (Vietnam). The June 1944 report listed orders for 300 Coventry I with production due to start June 1944 and 900 Coventry II with 75mm planned for 1945 production. By the December report 68 Coventry I had been built but the II had been cancelled.

Pretty unlikely that any saw service in Burma or Vietnam with the British or Indian armies as all bar 20 of the curtailed production run had already been allocated to the French by May 1945 and by December of that year only 68 had actually been completed.

http://www.warwheels.net/BritishArmouredCarProductionFiguresArticleBROWN.html
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Offline Jemima Fawr

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2020, 12:24:22 AM »
Hi Jemina

Just reviewing the posts and I am wondering if the 16th LC did consolidate different patterns of Armoured Car in separate Companies thus
A Fox
B Humber MkIV
C Daimler

Re the Jeep Troops.  If they took just the Infantry Platoon then there's approx 39 all ranks giving three Troops of 13 in 3 or 4 Jeeps.  However this would have only one officer and I suspect that Three Troops of four Jeeps each with Officer, Havildar and two Naiks plus 12 OR. With the extra men drawn from the (again I speculate) disbanded Scout Car teams.  And with these disbanded (or moved into HQ Troops and maybe in support of Mortar detachments) it would mean the Armoured Car Troops were each four A/C.

Sapper & Jemima
Re the Coventry A/C and Humber S/C.  I  have found an old French magazine article about the 5th Cuirassiers (The Royal Polish) and these guys were equipped with Humber and Coventry (78 of latter) but these were issued over a period mid-46 to late 47.  So probably bought and shipped direct form UK, however the article does suggest some of these vehicles came from Burma, without specifying which..

Cheers  John
Yes, I agree that the A/C Troops do indeed seem to have been of 4x A/C each.  The Scout Cars seem to have been relegated to SHQ, RHQ and Intercom Troop.  A line-up of PAVO Daimlers also shows two groups of four Daimlers with no Scout Cars.

'B' Sqn 16th LC definitely had Daimlers, as the only known photo of one of the regiment's armoured cars in Burma is a 'B' Sqn (No.2 Troop) Daimler named 'Bols'.  #C' Sqn also had Humbers, as the citation quoted above is from 'C' Sqn and positively refers to Humbers and 37mm guns.

It's always possible that squadrons had mixed types?

I think the Foxes were probably relegated to HQ and liaison roles, like those of the PAVO.
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Offline JohnFoA

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2020, 07:21:00 PM »
Jemima

I'd forgotten that, B Sqdn photo with Daimler, cos earlier in this thread there's a discussion about Humber A/C parading in Saigon and whether they're Foxes or Humber MkIVs.  Also comments about possibility of only B Coy being deployed.  If both those are correct then mixed vehicles in Sqdns it must, unless Humber's were HQ vehicles and Daimlers for Sabre Troops.

Alternatively the whole Regiment was deployed, but Sqdns could still have single pattern A/C in the Sabre Troops.

In one operation of 16th LC detached a Sqdn to act with Gateforce in Oct 45, which comprised
                o/c Major L. D. Gates
      1 Company 14/13 Frontier Force Rifles
      1 Squadron A/C - 16th Cavalry
      1 Bn Japanese Infantry 500 men
      Field Ambulance
      MMG detachment (9th Jats)
                Mortar Section from 14/13 FFR
                Detachment Indian Field Ambulance
                Detachment Indian Engineers

I wonder if Greacy would have allowed all of his armour out of Saigon?


Carlos
Thanks for that. I agree about the A/C. The article I have doesn't say which vehicle were sourced from where.  However 5th Cur arrived without vehicles and I suggest its possible that some Humber Scout Cars may have come from Burma/SEAC while the Coventrys took a while longer to arrived from UK.  Certainly the early photos - 1st 1/4 '46 show only Humber S/C in action.

Thanks All, great info, great thread.


 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 10:48:49 PM by JohnFoA »

Offline JohnFoA

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2020, 08:18:41 PM »
Oh Sapper

Have you a link for the photo of  16th LC in Siagon, please?

thanks

John

Offline Sapper

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2020, 09:18:57 PM »
Hi John,

The picture is on the cover of a soft cover book entitled "Britain and the origins of the Vietnam War - UK Policy in Indo-China 1943-1950" by T O Smith published in 2007.

It may well be that the author has got it wrong, and the picture is in fact of the 16th LC at a parade at Malacca in 1946.

I'm trying to trace a copy of the regimental history of the 16th LC (thanks to Jemima for pointing me in this direction), which may clarify many of the questions.

Sapper

Offline JohnFoA

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2020, 10:49:48 PM »
Cheers Sapper.  Will wait for update

Offline JohnFoA

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Re: British Vietnam War 1945?
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2020, 07:44:50 PM »
Link (or enouogh clues if the link don't work  o_o) for article about Gurkha charge.  Also note about 'Soviet' adviser caputred by Japanese trooops under 1/1 Gurkhas.

https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11858663#Britain_in_Vietnam:_prelude_to_disaster

 

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