Looking for help regarding Roman army project - feathers question

[Rochejaquelein]

Hello everyone. This is my first post, so I'm not entirely sure if I'm in the right subforum.

I've been in the planning stages of creating a 15mm/28mm scale Roman army, something that I can build up over the years. However, the problem is that I'm having difficulties determining what era to work on. I've "narrowed" it down to either Camillian, Polybian, Marian, Third Century Crisis, or Diocletian. As of right now I am leaning towards a mid Republic army, as I like the unit and enemy variety. I've done a lot of research (mostly Osprey and documentaries) I find myself with many question still that would determine what army to focus on.

a) From my research, it would appear that chainmail would come into wide spread use by the time of the Second Punic War and that the Triarii's hoplite shield was replaced with the scutum. My question is: did mail completely replace bronze muscle cuirasses and pectorals for Principes and Triarii? How about hoplite shields? Did some hastati still go into battle without chest armor like during the Camillian era? I know that in ancient and medieval armies, arms and armor didn't just get discontinued wholesale at a certain date and would continue to be used for decades. How out of place would a Roman soldier during Epirus' time look around the time of the Second Punic War/Macedonian Wars? How about by the time of the Third Punic War? I think that if there was a mix of military gear late into the manipular army that it would seal the deal on creating a Polybian era army.

b) Did military tributes fight on horseback or on foot? Most miniature models I see for sale have the tributes as infantry.

c) Did military tributes have a personal bodyguard entourage like legates did?

d) Did the rank of Optio, Signifer, Aquilifer, and Terrerarius exist during the mid Republic? If not, thats definitely a nudge toward making a non-Manipular army.

e) Did Velites ever fight with slings like older skirmisher units of the Camillian era

f) Would falcata swords still be in limited use by the Polybian era? Or were they completed replaced by gladii Hispanus?

g) Did lictors fight on the battlefield with those clumsy looking axes?

h) Would legates/tributes have mounted aide de camps nearby to relay messages on the battlefield?

i) Finally, does anyone have any suggestions on good detailed books on the manipular army? The Osprey books have been good, but I'm looking for greater detail.

[pws]

Too many questions  .
15mn or 28mm this is the first thing. Bonus/Malus in both scale, unless you decide to have them in both, as I (and a lot of gamers) did.
I have a "Polibian" and "III century" in 28mm and an early imperial and "fall of west empire" in 15mm.
Basically 28mm for large skirmish (Clash of Spears,Infamy) and 15mm fo mass games like DBA/DBM/FOG they fight different in different scale/ruleset.

A->I: I've those books from: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AGiuseppe+Cascarino , but I don't know if they are available in english. "L'esercito romano. Armamento e organizzazione" (Roman Army. Weapon and organization) 4 books from founding to the fall of west empire. Surely there are english equivalent.
Ciao

[Plynkes]

The fasces of the lictor was purely a symbol of office, so I seriously doubt anyone ever got hit over the head with one.

I think I read somewhere that lictors were exempt from military service so were they even taken on campaign? Even if they were, I don't imagine they were expected to do any fighting. They were nominally bodyguards, but their real purpose was to be part of a Roman official's entourage and make him look impressive.

[Mad Doc Morris]

That's the whole fun of wargaming Ancients: to all your questions my answer would be a confident "we don't know".

So you can literally come up with your own best guesses. There are more recent and 'bolder' works than those of Peter Connolly and Adrian Goldsworthy, but they still offer a fair consensus to base one's Romans for wargaming on. Regarding most of your questions I'd rather consider if they have any impact on gameplay and if it looks good to you. Just remember, wargamers like to represent a more or less typical appearance of any given period. Hence a wild mix of aspis-wielding triarii, velites armed with slings and hastati covered in mail will raise some eyebrows. There certainly were no clear cuts and abrupt changes from one 'style' to another. But unless you're going for a 1:1 ratio (and you seem to aim for army level, not skirmishes), you're better off choosing the most typical option.
That said, I for one would take no issue with fielding a 'Polybian' army against Pyrrhos in 280 or the Cimbri in 105 BC.

Sorry if that's not the answer you're looking for. Similar questions come up regularly, so you might want to browse the board for more inspiration.

[dadlamassu]

You might consider reading these 2 books your local library should be able to get them for you or online.  Or a history of a particular war by either of the authors below.

Peter Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War" - a bit dated but full of basic information
Adrian Goldsworthy "The Complete Roman Army"

Also I would suggest that rather than pick an army choose a campaign or war and do both sides.  If looking for a wide variety of units then the Punic Wars have a great variety on both sides.

[AdamPHayes]

Peter Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War" - a bit dated but full of basic information

And inspiring pics.

[Rochejaquelein]

15mn or 28mm this is the first thing. Bonus/Malus in both scale, unless you decide to have them in both, as I (and a lot of gamers) did.
I have a "Polibian" and "III century" in 28mm and an early imperial and "fall of west empire" in 15mm.
Basically 28mm for large skirmish (Clash of Spears,Infamy) and 15mm fo mass games like DBA/DBM/FOG they fight different in different scale/ruleset.

A->I: I've those books from: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AGiuseppe+Cascarino , but I don't know if they are available in english. "L'esercito romano. Armamento e organizzazione" (Roman Army. Weapon and organization) 4 books from founding to the fall of west empire. Surely there are english equivalent.
Ciao

I guess I never thought that I could do both 28mm and 15mm. The former for dioramas and display (the main reason) and the latter for actual gaming. That book you mentioned looked pretty interesting, but it appears to not be in English. 

The fasces of the lictor was purely a symbol of office, so I seriously doubt anyone ever got hit over the head with one.

I thought I would ask because I saw some manufacturers sell lictors alongside mounted officers in combat gear. I'm also reading a (historical fiction) book where it implies that a lictor's ax could be used for on the spot executions.

So you can literally come up with your own best guesses. There are more recent and 'bolder' works than those of Peter Connolly and Adrian Goldsworthy, but they still offer a fair consensus to base one's Romans for wargaming on. Regarding most of your questions I'd rather consider if they have any impact on gameplay and if it looks good to you. Just remember, wargamers like to represent a more or less typical appearance of any given period. Hence a wild mix of aspis-wielding triarii, velites armed with slings and hastati covered in mail will raise some eyebrows. There certainly were no clear cuts and abrupt changes from one 'style' to another.

I figured this was the case. I know from reading Osprey that old Imperial Gallic helmets from the 1st and 2nd century were modified for use in the 4th century. Being a militia army, I can imagine that maybe a few (10%-20%) of Polybian era Triarri; those from poorer backgrounds might still keep their muscle cuirasses and that the hastati barely making the financial requirements would go into battle with only a helmet. I really don't like the look of carbon copy soldiers and I want to use as many different variants as I can (Aventine has so many beautiful choices!)

You might consider reading these 2 books your local library should be able to get them for you or online.  Or a history of a particular war by either of the authors below.

Peter Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War" - a bit dated but full of basic information
Adrian Goldsworthy "The Complete Roman Army"

Also I would suggest that rather than pick an army choose a campaign or war and do both sides.  If looking for a wide variety of units then the Punic Wars have a great variety on both sides.

Funny you should say that. I was actually planning on buying Goldsworthy book last night. Looks like I'll have to get it now. I was also thinking of picking up Legions of Rome by Stephen Dando-Collins, but I think I've read either on here or elsewhere that he makes some rather big assumptions.

I also seemed to answer one of my questions. I had a quick look at an Osprey book I ordered on pre-Marian legion tactics that came in today and it does state that the office of Optio and signifer did exist  during the manipular system.

[Mad Doc Morris]

I figured this was the case. I know from reading Osprey that old Imperial Gallic helmets from the 1st and 2nd century were modified for use in the 4th century. Being a militia army, I can imagine that maybe a few (10%-20%) of Polybian era Triarri; those from poorer backgrounds might still keep their muscle cuirasses and that the hastati barely making the financial requirements would go into battle with only a helmet. I really don't like the look of carbon copy soldiers and I want to use as many different variants as I can (Aventine has so many beautiful choices!

You could do worse than going for an all-Aventine army. Fabulous models and even better service! Also there are all the options for a thematic, yet varied look.

However, I'd refrain from assumptions like "poor background = old gear" guiding your selection of models. In this instance; metal objects in particular were very valuable, so they ended up either as a gift to the gods or in a melting furnace. Only since the late Republic, when equipment was officially provided by the imperator/the state and 'paid off' by the soldiers, some pieces are documented as being handed down to new owners.
Before that, if the census found you eligible for military service, you likely had the income (or parentage) to equip yourself decently. Not the least, going to war was a means to fill one's purse, i. e. by plundering both on and off the battlefield. That may also be why in the "manipular era" the veterans (= already well off) would stand back while the young and poor (by comparison, that is) eagerly engaged the enemy. This only caused a problem when wars were fought in far-off regions and lasted longer, so the soldiers couldn't return home and had to live off their ever decreasing gains abroad. Still, those people were inherently proud to 'do service', and it's unlikely to see them fighting in rags and with outdated or ill-fitted equipment other than under the most desperate circumstances.

[Rochejaquelein]

However, I'd refrain from assumptions like "poor background = old gear" guiding your selection of models. In this instance; metal objects in particular were very valuable, so they ended up either as a gift to the gods or in a melting furnace. Only since the late Republic, when equipment was officially provided by the imperator/the state and 'paid off' by the soldiers, some pieces are documented as being handed down to new owners.
Before that, if the census found you eligible for military service, you likely had the income (or parentage) to equip yourself decently. Not the least, going to war was a means to fill one's purse, i. e. by plundering both on and off the battlefield. That may also be why in the "manipular era" the veterans (= already well off) would stand back while the young and poor (by comparison, that is) eagerly engaged the enemy. This only caused a problem when wars were fought in far-off regions and lasted longer, so the soldiers couldn't return home and had to live off their ever decreasing gains abroad. Still, those people were inherently proud to 'do service', and it's unlikely to see them fighting in rags and with outdated or ill-fitted equipment other than under the most desperate circumstances.

Now that you mention it, I remember reading something similar in Celtic and Germanic societies regarding the dedication of old weapons by throwing them in bodies of water.

However, on a purely historical authenticity basis, do you think it would be unreasonable for a minority of triarri and principes to use non-mail armor circa 220bc  - 160bc.? I've seen republican centurions in both muscle cuirasses and mail, and they were much richer than the rank and file. Also I read something not too long ago that a drawback of lorica hamata was that it was heavier than bronze armor.

[Frostie]

I would say Punic War period.

15mm using War and Empire figures, they are great....I have about 500 painted up.

Check my blog

http://warrenswargamerantings.blogspot.com/search/label/War%20%26%20Empire

[Mad Doc Morris]

… However, on a purely historical authenticity basis, do you think it would be unreasonable for a minority of triarri and principes to use non-mail armor circa 220bc  - 160bc.? I've seen republican centurions in both muscle cuirasses and mail, and they were much richer than the rank and file. Also I read something not too long ago that a drawback of lorica hamata was that it was heavier than bronze armor.

Not unreasonable. Just conjectural. For your period of choice there's Polybios' account, and regardless of its reliability, it's quite specific:

The common soldiers also receive a brass plate, a span square, which they put upon their breast and call a breastpiece (pectorale), and so complete their panoply. Those who are rated above a hundred thousand asses, instead of these breastpieces wear, with the rest of their armour, coats of mail (loricae). The Principes and Triarii are armed in the same way as the Hastati, except that instead of pila they carry long spears (hastae).

Re wealthy centurions; actually, at least in the Republican era, these officers were recruited from the ranks, hence not by default better-off than their men.

The Principes, Hastati, and Triarii, each elect ten centurions according to merit, and then a second ten each.

The emphasis on "merit" indicates excellence in military service or communal duties rather than wealth and descent.

[Rochejaquelein]

I guess its something to think about. Besides, if I wanted to have bronze armored soldiers besides hastati, I could always build samnite or Tarentine socii.

Both Greece and Rome at War and The Complete Roman Army came in recently and after a brief glance I got to say I am really impressed. Especially the former for its pictures and in depth discussion on gear, daily life, tactical layout etc. A bit lacking on the late Roman army but everything else is superb.

[Rochejaquelein]

Thought I would give an update.

After some additional reading, I decided on creating a Roman army during the early Polybian era (220 bc to 180 bc) alongside two alae of Italian allies. That way I can have them look the most unique individually while fighting the greatest number of different enemies (Gauls, Iberians, Numidians, Punics, Macedonians, Greeks, Seleucids).

Quick question: does anyone have any recommendation for nice looking 28mm unarmored hastati/Republican Romans in general? I'm thinking of focusing on having Aventine as my core (those models!) while using other manufacturers to increase unit diversity like Agema and Relic.

[Rick F]

Thought I would give an update.

After some additional reading, I decided on creating a Roman army during the early Polybian era (220 bc to 180 bc) alongside two alae of Italian allies. That way I can have them look the most unique individually while fighting the greatest number of different enemies (Gauls, Iberians, Numidians, Punics, Macedonians, Greeks, Seleucids).

Quick question: does anyone have any recommendation for nice looking 28mm unarmored hastati/Republican Romans in general? I'm thinking of focusing on having Aventine as my core (those models!) while using other manufacturers to increase unit diversity like Agema and Relic.

You can't go wrong with 1st Corps. https://1stcorps.co.uk/product-category/ancients/early-republican-roman/ancients-e-republican-roman-unit-packs/

[Fremitus Borealis]

Aren't 1st Corps a bit smaller than Aventine? Or is it only certain ranges? I have some Persians and Celts from them, and found I couldn't mix them with anything else because of the size difference. They do look nice though.