Gallowglass - did they serve in continental Europe?

[Ockius]

Just making use of the many historically well-read members of this forum to help me with a little research. Does anyone know if gallowglass or other Irish mercenaries served on continental Europe in the 16th century?

I had earlier thought that they must have done, having seen Albrecht Durer’s famous sketch of some made when he was in the Low Countries. I have just now read that scholars now think he made the sketch from imagination, based on an account he heard or read from an Imperial ambassador who had visited Ireland. This interested me, as I think that image is probably the basis for much of the modern visualisation of what gallowglass, kerns etc looked like, but it wasn’t actually drawn from life or even memory - only from second-hand info. Surely goes to show just how many of our modern imaginings of historical warriors may be wide of the mark!

But anyway, does anyone know if they did fight for the English, French, Spanish, Imperials or Italians in the 16th century?

[OB]

I think Durer's drawing fits with other images we have.  Some scholars may doubt it but I don't. Nor do other scholars, it appears in Duffy's World of the Gallowglass.

You could find some Irish soldiers in Spanish employ before the Flight of the Earls. There was a developed trade between the Hapsburg Empire and Ireland.  They fought and were equipped in the Spanish fashion. Post that you would find many more as Spain was the main provider of refuge.

The English employed lots of Irish troops.  The French and Italian connection seems to come later.

[Ockius]

Okay, I think I have a good enough reason to buy some for my Henry VIII army then. The Field of Glory Renaissance army list allows kerns for later Henrician armies, but doesn’t list gallowglass, but I wouldn’t let that restrict me. I’m sort of building a 1510s-1520s Henrician army, but I don’t mind fictionalising a bit with plausible ‘what ifs’.

I really like how anachronistic they look alongside the slashed sleeves of landsknechts, and the arquebusiers and cannons.

[fred]

I know this is just using one set of rules to validate another...

Irregular Wars has both Gallowglass and Kerns available to their Tudor lists which go though the whole of the 16 century - although they do note that the troops moved more to pike and shot by the end of the century

[OB]

Henry liked to employ Irish cavalry too if you fancy that.

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

Okay, I think I have a good enough reason to buy some for my Henry VIII army then. The Field of Glory Renaissance army list allows kerns for later Henrician armies, but doesn’t list gallowglass, but I wouldn’t let that restrict me. I’m sort of building a 1510s-1520s Henrician army, but I don’t mind fictionalising a bit with plausible ‘what ifs’.

Good for you.

The Early Herician FoG:R list - as originally written - is awful, IMO; I say that based on many, many conversations with Stuart Mulligan (who does the Army Royal blog and frequently posts on here about the 1513 expedition to France and his own - quite frankly superb - efforts to model it).  I got the rule writers to (grudgingly) make some changes when the army lists were all revamped a couple of years ago (eg adding arquebus - but only one unit), but they refused to allow mounted archers, and insisted on retaining the historically disproportionate levels of polearms to archers to firearms.  They also insisted on still rating it similarly to the execrable 1540s army, which it most certainly was not - in the same way that 1510s Henry and 1540s Henry were two very different men, so were the two armies he sent over to France.

Be interested to see how you get on.

[Ockius]

Thanks for the info people.

Good for you.

The Early Herician FoG:R list - as originally written - is awful, IMO; I say that based on many, many conversations with Stuart Mulligan (who does the Army Royal blog and frequently posts on here about the 1513 expedition to France and his own - quite frankly superb - efforts to model it).  I got the rule writers to (grudgingly) make some changes when the army lists were all revamped a couple of years ago (eg adding arquebus - but only one unit), but they refused to allow mounted archers, and insisted on retaining the historically disproportionate levels of polearms to archers to firearms.  They also insisted on still rating it similarly to the execrable 1540s army, which it most certainly was not - in the same way that 1510s Henry and 1540s Henry were two very different men, so were the two armies he sent over to France.

Be interested to see how you get on.

I think I might have seen your posts on this on the Slitherine site or somewhere (I have in my research by now read most of the stuff I can find on the Henrician army!).

I agree with you about the underrating of Henry's army. From everything I've read, I can't imagine it was very well run - a lack of organisational units about company level, companies being all sorts of strengths and containing a variety of troop types, virtually no professional troops - but I feel like it would have been handy enough when it came to blows. The problem is, it never did! Which is a shame for all us wargamers 

My theory is that longbows would have been very good against massed landsknecht pike blocks with little armour. Their rate of fire and the potential for arrows landing in a dipping trajectory, missing the armoured front rank, would have made them very effective I imagine. Surely every arrow would hit and wound. And the billmen convincingly beat the Scots pikes at Flodden (yes, they weren't very well trained in using pikes by then, but then neither were the billmen - they were just levy troops and all the best troops were in France).

I think their only weak point would be hurting and resisting charges from barded gendarmes - from what I've seen of longbow demos on Youtube, the arrows would have bounced off contemporary well-made plate armour, and Henry didn't have the pikes or arquebus to hurt them.

Anyway, I've taken my own thread off topic, but hey-ho.

[commissarmoody]

Don't worry about taking the thread off track. I plan on doing a early Henry Army once I get back to and finish my east German army. And this is good information. 

[Ockius]

Don't worry about taking the thread off track. I plan on doing a early Henry Army once I get back to and finish my east German army. And this is good information.

There’s a series of interesting podcasts on the topic by an Oxford professor if you are looking to do research. Pretty good to have on while painting
https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/english-people-war-age-henry-viii
He doesn’t say much about how the army fought, but he dips into a huge number of primary accounts that give an idea of how levies were mustered, what gear they turned out in and where it came from.

[Stuart]

Henry used kern in France for the 1544 campaign and possibly Irish horse in the 1513 campaign though that may have been a reference to the type of horse not necessarily the origin.

From what I’ve seen there are no mentions of gallowglass in Henry’s continental forays, that doesn’t mean they weren’t there but I’d say unlikely. The kern were used to rustle livestock and generally cause disruption for which their light equipment and manoeuvrability would serve well.

The Scots used them for sure.

For service to other states it’s possible but I can’t think of anything off the top of my head.

[Stuart]

For a good solid education on the army of Henry viii ‘Henry viii’s military revolution’ is a great read.

Predominantly well organised and reasonably led, it was flexible and could suit all of the theatres it served in. In listings it definitely suffers from misunderstanding.

[Ockius]

Henry used kern in France for the 1544 campaign and possibly Irish horse in the 1513 campaign though that may have been a reference to the type of horse not necessarily the origin.

From what I’ve seen there are no mentions of gallowglass in Henry’s continental forays, that doesn’t mean they weren’t there but I’d say unlikely. The kern were used to rustle livestock and generally cause disruption for which their light equipment and manoeuvrability would serve well.

The Scots used them for sure.

For service to other states it’s possible but I can’t think of anything off the top of my head.

Thanks for the info.
I will get some kern as they seem historically justified, and probably some gallowglass because even if they aren't historical, they certainly add some colour, and can also make up a Scottish or Irish opposing army to fight against.

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

I think I might have seen your posts on this on the Slitherine site or somewhere (I have in my research by now read most of the stuff I can find on the Henrician army!).

I agree with you about the underrating of Henry's army. From everything I've read, I can't imagine it was very well run - a lack of organisational units about company level, companies being all sorts of strengths and containing a variety of troop types, virtually no professional troops - but I feel like it would have been handy enough when it came to blows. The problem is, it never did! Which is a shame for all us wargamers 

Yes, they might be under "Ronan the Librarian" which was a previous screen name that I used until I discovered about six other people were using it, from a nouvelle cuisine expert, to a gay fashion blogger!

I think their only weak point would be hurting and resisting charges from barded gendarmes - from what I've seen of longbow demos on Youtube, the arrows would have bounced off contemporary well-made plate armour, and Henry didn't have the pikes or arquebus to hurt them.

Well, actually, he did - he had quite a lot of his own Landsknechts, who also included arquebus-armed sub-units; plus he had a load more English arquebusiers - including a fair chunk of the Yeomen of the Guard - and some pike as well.  There's also the Battle of the Spurs, where his horse pretty much hold their own against their French counterparts (Stuart knows more about that).

I think the problem is, as I've said before, that the 1513 army tends to get lumped in with the 1540 army (which genuinely was AWFUL!) and no distinction is made.

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

From what I’ve seen there are no mentions of gallowglass in Henry’s continental forays, that doesn’t mean they weren’t there but I’d say unlikely.

They were certainly part of Elizabeth's armies, but I think you are right about the Henrician period.  I would have imagined that any Irish troops that were relatively well organised would have merited a mention or two.

[Shahbahraz]

I'm going to have to weigh in on this:

'And the billmen convincingly beat the Scots pikes at Flodden'

After the pikes had struggled uphill with arrows jutting out from every joint of their armour, disordered and with many casualties from archery. It's not exactly a straight 'bill vs pike' comparison.