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Author Topic: Frostgrave using D10s  (Read 1243 times)

Offline scatterbrains

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2020, 01:08:40 AM »
It's all about accepting that on a bad day you won't win a single roll and get wiped out ... that your dudes you spent hours painting aren't actually dead, they just need a new name.

Offline Michi

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2020, 06:04:30 AM »
however the D20 and the swingy-ness, in my opinion is an integral part of Frostgrave.

That is my opinion on it as well. The conclusion from many a game of Frostgrave was and still is to enjoy a fast game, not to fall in love with your characters on the table too much, focus on wizard's and apprentice's actions (boost them to successes at all expenses) and better buy cheap minions, because the expensive mercenaries die just as quickly as any other human being. One should know what he does when taking money from a WIZARD to accompany that one on an expedition to a MAGICAL place like Felstad. Who would dare to blame it on the dice or bad luck or destiny? It is anybody's own decision who mever he follows…  lol

Offline Historiker

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2020, 03:46:24 PM »
I understand your opinion on the D20 and I find it irritating as well (and much prefer the D10 System of TinaT) however the D20 and the swingy-ness, in my opinion is an integral part of Frostgrave.

Just to be clear: I found the D20 irritating, not your opinion  8)

As to what to do about it, I think scatterbrains and Michi have it right and that they provide nice solutions in terms of lore / setting and practicality. In my (few) games of Frostgrave there have been quite the number of "Bob the Archer IIIrd".

As to my personal taste for warband skirmish games, it would probably closer to other systems where every warband member "has character". But that would be concerning other games and different game design decisions. Frostgrave, in my view, is built for quick games and very little administrative / bookkeeping overhead and it is very successful in achieving that.
"The philosopher Didactylos has summed up an alternative hypothesis as: Things just happen. What the hell."

Offline pixelgeek

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2020, 04:46:47 PM »
and better buy cheap minions, because the expensive mercenaries die just as quickly as any other human being.

So what is the point of all of those different types of minions then? Doesn't that seem to point to a flaw in the game?

I understand the people coming to defend the game but that isn't what I was looking for. Maybe if we weren't in the midst of a pandemic I would care less but my two 12 year old gaming companions both love the idea of a game where they can paint their minis and game with them but really don't like the idea that said character then dies because their sibling rolled a 19 and there is nothing that you can do about that.

With a new lockdown imminent I was hoping to be able to try to rescue some of the effort that we put into building models etc but it looks as if that is going to take some work to try to do.

I may just look for a different system though as the flaws in Frostgrave really do annoy me. Which is odd since the author did such a much better job with Oathmark.

Offline fred

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2020, 04:57:40 PM »
A lot of skirmish games add a post-game recovery roll for any “dead” figures - this is often pretty generous, with only a 10-15% chance of permanent death, a chance of wounding, or just being fine for the next game.

Offline pixelgeek

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2020, 05:16:12 PM »
A lot of skirmish games add a post-game recovery roll for any “dead” figures - this is often pretty generous, with only a 10-15% chance of permanent death, a chance of wounding, or just being fine for the next game.

I might have a read through the campaign rules for SoBH again and see if there is anything there to work with.

There are some fun things in the Frostgrave campaign rules but they don't seem to be very deep. Its a bit of a common theme with Osprey rules. They seem rushed. With the exception of Oathmark which might just benefit from being much simpler.

Offline Historiker

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2020, 06:24:42 PM »
I don´t really want to advertise another game system in the Frostgrave section of the forum but since I once also encountered some of your issues with Frostgrave I hope it is forgiven if I offer a recommendation which does not involve Frostgrave (with the benefit that the game mentioned is also involved in a cooperative effort with Joe called "BLASTER Magazine" - check it out on DrivethruRPG!).

The system in question is called Relicblade and though it does offer a very different style of game it could maybe be what you are looking for. It has proprietary minis but can be played with whatever you have already!

Back when I was researching Frostgrave alternatives I found very few and Frostgrave seems to be the go-to game for a lot of people wanting a narrative small warband level fantasy game. This is actually quite good for a lot of gamers because it means there is an active community around!

If I would get a penny for every game I intended to play but there was no one in my town interested in playing it... but I digress:

If I were you I would not try to "change" Frostgrave too much if you don't like the core mechanisms. I tried doing that and it started an effort which led me to almost writing my own wargame... and who has the time for that! So if you I would either try to find a way to enjoy Frostgrave or play something different. As always, this is not meant aggressively but just as a way in which I would approach it   :)

Offline Bearwoodman

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2020, 06:37:40 PM »
A lot of skirmish games add a post-game recovery roll for any “dead” figures - this is often pretty generous, with only a 10-15% chance of permanent death, a chance of wounding, or just being fine for the next game.

We have found when playing Frostgrave that relatively few of the battle casualties are ever permanantly dead. It's much more common that they make a recovery or (in the case of the wizard or apprentice) suffer some kind of injury that they carry with them going forward (which in my view adds to the character - I am very protective of my nervous young apprentice Witch who currently bears "psychological scars").

If a minion dies, well it gives you an excuse to paint a new model to replace him - or else recruit his/her identical twin out for revenge!

The only time a wizard has actually died in a game we were playing was in Battle on The River in the Thaw of the Lichlord  campaign last year. He was slain by a warband controlled jointly by my young son and his friend - and they still remind me of it! 

The fact that combat is so dangerous, even for tough fighters, can make players cautious, and the 2nd edition rules for placing treasure sound like they will help this.

Offline pixelgeek

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2020, 06:43:24 PM »
We have found when playing Frostgrave that relatively few of the battle casualties are ever permanantly dead.

In the few games we played we found this as well. We lost a Wizard though :-( That was my character.

Offline pixelgeek

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2020, 06:44:32 PM »

If I were you I would not try to "change" Frostgrave too much if you don't like the core mechanisms. I tried doing that and it started an effort which led me to almost writing my own wargame... and who has the time for that! So if you I would either try to find a way to enjoy Frostgrave or play something different. As always, this is not meant aggressively but just as a way in which I would approach it   :)

I am coming to this conclusion. I will check Relicblade out again. Also looking into using the SoBH campaign system with the ASoBH rules

Offline Michi

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2020, 10:29:25 PM »
So what is the point of all of those different types of minions then? Doesn't that seem to point to a flaw in the game?

For me it was a big rescue! I had so many Sword&Sorcery fantasy miniatures in the lead pile which I finally found a use for at last. I had not to buy a single model to start playing Frostgrave immediately. By simply deciding what you see is what you get, every miniature was defined by the shown armour and weapons with ease. I loved that.

Offline snitcythedog

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2020, 12:44:31 AM »
I can see the concern about the swingy nature of the dice in Frostgrave but for me that is one of the selling points.  The game tells a story much the same way that Pulp Alley does where in the same game you can have amazing cinematic moments and huge blunders that cost dearly.  Our group as a whole has a lot of fun laughing at both our own and each-others rolls every time we play.  If the system is too swingy for your liking then you can either tweak the rules (2D10 in this case) or try another system.  You are playing a game after all and it should be fun for all involved.  If you want to customize the rules then play around with them.  We changed the random monster generation in our local club to encourage more monsters on the table instead of less.  It changed the dynamic of the game.
A bottle of scotch and two aspirin a day will greatly reduce your awareness of heart disease.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"... Mark Twain
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Offline Coenus Scaldingus

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2020, 04:03:22 PM »
That is my opinion on it as well. The conclusion from many a game of Frostgrave was and still is to enjoy a fast game, not to fall in love with your characters on the table too much, focus on wizard's and apprentice's actions (boost them to successes at all expenses) and better buy cheap minions, because the expensive mercenaries die just as quickly as any other human being.
Thing is, that's not actually remotely the case. While it may seem that the small stat increases between a lowly Thug and a proper Knight are only marginal, so presumably only relevant in a small amount of the "swingy" opposed dice rolls, those small differences actually make a massive difference.

In a fight between those two, the Knight (Fight +4, Armour 13, Health 12) has 1.5 times the chance of winning the roll-off compared to the Thug (Fight +2, Armour 10, Health 10) - 57.3% compared to 38.3%. That's just with +2 Fight; odds get even higher if the Knight has a magical weapon or is enhanced with a spell; buffs you would normally give to those expensive soldiers.
Of all duels, the Knight has a 27.0% chance of winning and merely wounding their opponent, and 23.5% chance of outright killing them. (Assuming the critical hit rule is not used, seeing how it's explicitly optional and presumably left out by anyone disliking "swingy" results.)
The Thug, meanwhile, has a 31.3% chance of winning and doing some damage, and a 0% chance of killing the Knight in one go. The combination of armour and health is simply unsurmountable in a single dice roll. Wizards themselves will similarly rarely go down in 1 hit, as their health will simply be too high (especially later in a campaign). A series of unfortunate dice rolls can be the end of anyone of course... as they can in every game.

I understand the people coming to defend the game but that isn't what I was looking for. Maybe if we weren't in the midst of a pandemic I would care less but my two 12 year old gaming companions both love the idea of a game where they can paint their minis and game with them but really don't like the idea that said character then dies because their sibling rolled a 19 and there is nothing that you can do about that.
[...]
I may just look for a different system though as the flaws in Frostgrave really do annoy me. Which is odd since the author did such a much better job with Oathmark.
Why do you call aspects that were clearly intended game design, which you happen to not enjoy, "flaws"?
If you don't like chance to play a role in games, dice games may not be optimal in general. If it's just the permanently dying in a campaign that's the problem, the injury table can easily be modified (multiple permanent injuries or so).

Of course, Frostgrave may indeed simply not be for you/your circumstances. But the randomness in Frostgrave is really quite overstated, even if that's not what it can feel like at times.

In the few games we played we found this as well. We lost a Wizard though :-( That was my character.
Is that what this all comes from - a single unlucky occurrence that lost you your wizard?  ;)
Because objectively, that's all it is - unlucky. Changing the odds may make things less likely, but it can still happen. Again, most attacks can't take out a more important figure in one hit, and a series of unlucky rolls will eventually be the end of anyone in any game.
~Ad finem temporum~

Offline pixelgeek

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2020, 05:16:59 PM »
Is that what this all comes from - a single unlucky occurrence that lost you your wizard?  ;)

No. Ask a question first and then extrapolate after you get an answer. Assuming an answer and then responding to your newly built strawman is just irritating.

Offline Coenus Scaldingus

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2020, 07:33:06 AM »
No. Ask a question first and then extrapolate after you get an answer. Assuming an answer and then responding to your newly built strawman is just irritating.
Well now, relax, that statement was clearly made in jest.
It's difficult to say more now, however, since you declined to give an answer or comment on any of the other points.

 

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