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Author Topic: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner  (Read 889 times)

Offline Silent bob

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Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« on: November 29, 2020, 11:46:13 AM »
Hi,
I am currently painting up a HYW retinue for Lion Rampant – sort of historically organised – three units of bowmen and one of MaA. Instead of going for the usual suspects – Talbot Bedford, Salisbury etc 

I’m going for that most diplomatic character – Sir William Glasdale. I have found Glasdales own coat of arms/blazon but apparently he carried the Banner of John Chandos (Ian Heath) – does anyone have any details of what this banner would have been - would it have just been D'argent, a pile gules. (Alternatively Or, a pile gules)?

Just as an extra question – Chandos died probably before Glasdale was born....what was the connection between his and Chandos, that he carried his banner?

Thanks

Offline Atheling

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2020, 12:42:22 PM »
Hi,
I am currently painting up a HYW retinue for Lion Rampant – sort of historically organised – three units of bowmen and one of MaA. Instead of going for the usual suspects – Talbot Bedford, Salisbury etc 

I’m going for that most diplomatic character – Sir William Glasdale. I have found Glasdales own coat of arms/blazon but apparently he carried the Banner of John Chandos (Ian Heath) – does anyone have any details of what this banner would have been - would it have just been D'argent, a pile gules. (Alternatively Or, a pile gules)?

Just as an extra question – Chandos died probably before Glasdale was born....what was the connection between his and Chandos, that he carried his banner?

Thanks

I'm confused by the Heath's reference to Sir William Glasdale (a good commander but essentially a knight) carrying banner (heraldic banner or standard?) of Sir John Chandos, who was after all practically a member of the nobility being  Viscount of Saint-Sauveur in the Cotentin, Constable of Aquitaine, Seneschal of Poitou etc.

I don't doubt that Heath made the reference. Chandos died in 1369 and Glasdale in 1429 at Orleans.

I'm not saying that it did not happen but I am surprised. I'd love to hear more  ??? There must have been a good reason  ???

Sorry I can't help anymore, I can't even recall your reference but I assume it is from WRG Armies of the Middle Ages published in 1982?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 01:26:11 PM by Atheling »

Offline Patrice

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2020, 02:06:23 PM »
I was surprised by this, so I just had a quick look (Google research in French) and yes it is mentioned in some books that Glasdale (also written Glasdall or Glassidas by old French authors) did carry the banner of John Chandos at Orleans.

There may be different sources for this, I tracked one which is a letter from Charles VII to the inhabitants of Narbonne (10 May 1429) telling them what happened at Orleans and that at the fighting on the bridge "la dite bastide, qui estoit le boulevert du pont, où avoit bien VIc combatans anglois, sous deux bannières et l'estendart de Chandos" (there was about 600 English fighters under two banners and the standard of Chandos).

Later commentators give for reason that a banner or standard of Chandos was still carried by English troops as a symbol (?) but as usual they seem to have all copied each other...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 07:28:04 PM by Patrice »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2020, 03:28:01 PM »
I was surprised by this, so I just had a quick look (Google research in French) and yes it is mentioned is some books that Glasdale (also written Glasdall or Glassidas by old French authors) did carry the banner of John Chandos at Orleans.

There may be different sources for this, I tracked one which is a letter from Charles VII to the inhabitants of Narbonne (10 May 1429) telling them what happened at Orleans and that at the fighting on the bridge "la dite bastide, qui estoit le boulevert du pont, où avoit bien VIc combatans anglois, sous deux bannières et l'estendart de Chandos" (there was about 600 English fighters under two banners and the standard of Chandos).

Later commentators give for reason that a banner or standard of Chandos was still carried by English troops as a symbol (?) but as usual they seem to have all copied each other...

Makes me wonder if something has been lost in the mists of time?

Perhaps Glasdale was bearing Chandos' arms to send a message? Though quite what that might be I don't know. And so shortly after Verneuil (1424) which was a crushing victory for the "English"; and the Battle of Rouvray so near to the event?

All very fascinating stuff!

Offline Patrice

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2020, 05:09:59 PM »
All very fascinating stuff!

Yes.  :o

Ian Heath mentions it on page 100 "This banner was still carried, and was lost with, Sir William Glasdale at the siege of Orleans in 1429".

I find writings from French scholars of the late 19th and early 20th C mentioning enthusiastically that the banner which had flown on English armies since 80 years was defeated that day and disappeared in the river with its bearer, that the standard of a young maid defeated the old standard of Chandos, etc. etc... That seems quite ridiculous if there are no other mentions of this banner or standard in other French or English source for previous decades.

That could leave us with two possibilities (what seems certain in any case is that the reputation of Sir John Chandos was well remembered on both sides) it's only guesswork:

1) Someone in the English command besieging Orleans (or during this campaign), perhaps Glasdale himself, had the idea to raise a banner bearing the arms of Chandos to encourage the soldiers and discourage the besieged. After this banner was lost and the siege ended there was no reason on the English side to remember this.

or ...I've just thought of another one (which I think I like best, although it won't help much Silent Bob):

2) Perhaps it was only a French nickname for a standard of Saint George? I find a bit strange that Charles VII in his letter needed to mention this that way. It's difficult to think with the minds of the time but with all the religious feelings involved, especially in this campaign, it would have been very bad propaganda (and bad luck) for the French to advertise themselves that a saint (Saint George) was on the English side ...and that his banner had been defeated and thrown into the river. Probably Joan of Arc herself would prefer not to say this (pure guesswork again). Whereas people of the time would associate Chandos with the English standard and could understand what it meant.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 07:31:00 PM by Patrice »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2020, 09:25:43 PM »
Patrice,

I can only think that it must have been the banner of St George. It's been at the back of my mind all day and I can't think of what else the author/s may have been referring to. Chandos was made a Banneret and obviously he could display his coat of arms on the battlefield. I'm at a loss to explain why Glasdale would be displaying Chandos' personal arms.  o_o

The author must surely have been referring to another coat of arms  ???

Offline Silent bob

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2020, 06:38:07 AM »
Thanks a lot chaps.

Perhaps it was a pseudonym for the Cross of St George - after all the Banner of Chandos had not been flying since the start of the war.

Cheers

SB

Offline bluewillow

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2020, 08:17:05 AM »
I suspect the banner of St George also.

It makes no sense at all to carry someone else's banner into battle as a non knight banneret noble, whereas a company/Lance commander could carry a banner of st George.

My two cents

Cheers
Matt
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Offline Atheling

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2020, 08:51:50 AM »
I suspect the banner of St George also.

The question was sitting at the back of my kind, nagging me, all day yesterday. With the advent of a new light of a sunrise, if you can call it that at this time of year in the NW, it has to be the Banner of St George. Possibly, maybe the arms of England but the former is much more likely IMHO.

It makes no sense at all to carry someone else's banner into battle as a non knight banneret noble.

Not to mention very illegal.

Offline Silent bob

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2020, 05:59:57 PM »
Hi,

One thing that has been niggling me is if it was the Cross of St George and if it wasn't mentioned as such because (as Patrice theorises), the French didn't want to give the English saintly credentials.....

However it was no secret that St George was a favourite of the English (or would it be the other way round?) - every force of English in the field was supposed to have a Cross of St George in addition to other banners, the English used his name as a battle cry....so it would probably have been no secret.....

Cheers

SB

Offline Atheling

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2020, 06:28:37 PM »
Hi,

One thing that has been niggling me is if it was the Cross of St George and if it wasn't mentioned as such because (as Patrice theorises), the French didn't want to give the English saintly credentials.....

However it was no secret that St George was a favourite of the English (or would it be the other way round?) - every force of English in the field was supposed to have a Cross of St George in addition to other banners, the English used his name as a battle cry....so it would probably have been no secret.....

Cheers

SB

Hi SB,

It was certainly no secret. Heraldry and pageantry were paramount throughout this period. As essential as a sword, bill, bow, crossbow or poleaxe :)

Offline Patrice

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2020, 07:03:29 PM »
if it wasn't mentioned as such because (as Patrice theorises), the French didn't want to give the English saintly credentials..... However it was no secret that St George was a favourite of the English (or would it be the other way round?) - every force of English in the field was supposed to have a Cross of St George in addition to other banners, the English used his name as a battle cry....so it would probably have been no secret...

Yes, I was only suggesting (as a theory) that the French would not have wanted to say it officially, and especially not Joan of Arc's staff, when you read her letter (certainly written by some clerics around her) asking for English reddition in the name of God etc. it would have been a contradiction...

However there could be a more simple reason, I've seen yesterday a comment by a modern French historian (I'm still searching to find the page again) who thinks it's only a 19th century misread and it could be "the standard of Glasdall". Apparently all comes from this letter of Charles VII to the city of Narbonne, which has been copied by a local ...historian (?) in the 19th century and I don't hear of any other source.

This could also be an explanation, although I don't know why the secretary of Charles VII would have wanted to mention Glasdale who was a lesser nobleman unknown at the other end of the country. But I've been surprised that internet research about: Jeanne d'Arc Chandos, together in French, gave some unexpected results (that all people interested in this matter certainly knew but my own interest in the HYW had been more the War of the Breton Succession than the 1420s period). There are surprising French 18th and 19th C. texts and theatre plays where Joan of Arc and Chandos appear together, one poem by Voltaire himself, and later silly theatre plays in the 19th century, it seems there was a fashion for it. Of course these people knew that it was different historical periods but they were accustomed to think of Joan of Arc and Chandos mentioned together...  ::)

« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 07:09:03 PM by Patrice »

Offline Silent bob

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2020, 09:31:33 AM »
Hi,

Last question before I go back under my stone.......

Having given upon the idea giving Glasdale, Sir John Chandos' banner.....would (or perhaps could) have SWG had his own banner based upon his coat of arms.....or did he have to be a 'Banneret' to do that?

Cheers

SB

Offline Atheling

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2020, 09:46:28 AM »
Hi,

Last question before I go back under my stone.......

Having given upon the idea giving Glasdale, Sir John Chandos' banner.....would (or perhaps could) have SWG had his own banner based upon his coat of arms.....or did he have to be a 'Banneret' to do that?

Cheers

SB

Hi SB,

Can I draw your attention to the Lance and Longbow Society and the Freezywater publication, Standards, Badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses. The booklet is jam packed with info on all you will need to know about 'English' heraldry etc. It's cheep too at £10 :)

Standards, Badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses
Direct link to image etc:
http://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php
Shop:
http://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php

Offline Patrice

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Re: Glasdale and John Chandos' banner
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2020, 05:56:28 PM »
would (or perhaps could) have SWG had his own banner based upon his coat of arms.....or did he have to be a 'Banneret' to do that?

You can't have a banner if you're not a banneret knight. In the 14th century simple knights displayed their arms on a small triangular "pennon" but this was perhaps already falling out of fashion in the early 15th C.

As a standard is mentioned, I would suppose it was in fact a standard or ensign. Captains were allowed to have their own, for which they could imagine what design they liked... not often their own arms, more often their own personal livery colours which could be very different from the colours on their shield.

And, um, in this case he would probably not carry it himself  ::) or perhaps only when end was close.

Don't despair, perhaps we are all wrong and there are other explanations... Perhaps the original letter from king Charles VII said that SWG was carrying "the banner of Gandalf"  lol

 

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