Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021

[bulldogger2000]

After years of contemplating painting up hoplite forces, I have finally started.  I am looking to do the Peloponnesian War on a smaller scale (100 per side).
I would like to find an easy, beer and pretzel set of rules.  Any thoughts?
Thanks is advance.

[armchairgeneral]

Although written as a Dark Ages/Medieval ruleset, I am planning to use Lion Rampant as an easy to pick up set of rules for about 100 figures a side. A friend has sent me an unofficial supplement Peloponnesian War Rampant although the rules as they stand seem easily adaptable.

There is an Osprey set specifically for Hoplite warfare called Men of Bronze but I haven’t read it or heard how it plays. The author is a LAF member and may well reply to your thread with more details.

[bulldogger2000]

Thank you. I will look into both sets that you suggested.  Much appreciated.

[Tonhel]

Mortal Gods from Footsore. 100 figures per side is a lot so, you would be playing 1500 point games. I mostly play around 500 - 600 points games and that around 25 - 35 figures per side.

[SteveBurt]

 Saga: Age of Hannibal (use the Graeculi board)

[Easy E]

I think you have hear the big 3 of smaller scale Hoplite gaming:

1. Men of Bronze
2. Mortal Gods
3. Saga: Age of Hannibal

I am sure you could also make it work with some "bigger" battle rule sets as well such as:

1. L'Arte De Guerre
2. DBA
3. Hail Ceasar
4. Impetus
5. To the Strongest
6. Swordpoint
7. Sword and Spear
8. Warhammer Ancient Battles

However, those are more for "bigger" battles. 

Before I offer feedback on rules, I have a couple of follow-up question for you.

1. Do you want base/model removal?
2. Do you like scale and model agnostic?
3. Do you want model vs. model or Unit vs. Unit skirmish?
4. Do you like cards, custom dice, and similar unique game accessories with your games?
5. What are other games you like? 
6. What (if anything) is played locally?   

[WuZhuiQiu]

There's also Hoplomachia, by The Perfect Captain (with a presence on facebook, too):

http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/hoplomachia.html

[bulldogger2000]

In the big scheme of things I would like something along the lines of The Sword and the Flame.  Unit based, individual figures, with figure removal for casualties. Cards for designating turn activation and also a card system that provides for random events are, I believe, make for an entertaining, fun, beer and pretzel, "guys night" gaming experience.

I think you have hear the big 3 of smaller scale Hoplite gaming:

1. Men of Bronze
2. Mortal Gods
3. Saga: Age of Hannibal

I am sure you could also make it work with some "bigger" battle rule sets as well such as:

1. L'Arte De Guerre
2. DBA
3. Hail Ceasar
4. Impetus
5. To the Strongest
6. Swordpoint
7. Sword and Spear
8. Warhammer Ancient Battles

However, those are more for "bigger" battles. 

Before I offer feedback on rules, I have a couple of follow-up question for you.

1. Do you want base/model removal?
2. Do you like scale and model agnostic?
3. Do you want model vs. model or Unit vs. Unit skirmish?
4. Do you like cards, custom dice, and similar unique game accessories with your games?
5. What are other games you like? 
6. What (if anything) is played locally?

[Easy E]

Thanks for answering. 

Then I recommend Mortal Gods.  It has more of what you are looking for. 

Even though I wrote Men of Bronze, it doesn't have what you want.

To prove it, here is a high level overview of Men of Bronze so you can judge for yourself:

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/03/review-men-of-bronze-osprey-games.html

 

[Byblos]

Hoplomachia from The Perfect Captain is really interesting !

[scarabminiatures]

In the big scheme of things I would like something along the lines of The Sword and the Flame.  Unit based, individual figures, with figure removal for casualties. Cards for designating turn activation and also a card system that provides for random events are, I believe, make for an entertaining, fun, beer and pretzel, "guys night" gaming experience.

Reading this bit, you may want to check out War & Conquest by Scarab Miniatures (written by me, so I have bias  ) - one of the requirements was Hoplite warfare (the book cover, theme and many of the internal pictures show Hoplite warfare, its something I am interested in and commissioned our own range of greek and spartan minis for) -

Turn activation is determined by dice roll each turn, winner choosing to go first or second. There are options to roll extra dice to try and influence the result, but the dice can be cruel - this can give much mirth and obviously the whole process makes game flow less predictable, you can decide to be very cautious or just flat out gamble when you make your moves.

As well as a straight fight, there are 'battle objectives' which are secret, (but can be changed if you have the resource) again this can be entertaining and the game lends to social interaction - it was another requirement - we want to enjoy an evenings gaming.

Formations are based as units, with figure removal but you can do a mix of single and multi base models if you wish (I do) - once a formation hits 'half strength' there is an impact on its morale.

finally a 2000 point army (which gives a decent game in around 2 1/2 hours or so, depending on how much chatting you do) can consist of Commander and other useful leaders, 3 x 24 hoplites, 2 x 16 Thracian/hill tribe types and a few units of skirmishers (who cannot 'charge' a proper formation - but can make a glancing attack - usually with mixed results as most skirmishers during this period are not exactly high impact troops  )

So that takes you just over 100 models for a force using a 6ft x 4ft table. If you look for the War & Conquest Facebook page you can see some pictures of my Troy game and some other Hoplite action - army lists are free

Sorry the post is a bit long and obviously in the Ancient period there are lots of rule sets and everybody has their own preference but we have always had some splendid hoplite (and Persian) battles with the rules

Probably best to pm me or drop by the pages mentioned above for further questions to avoid taking over the topic.

Not sure if these links works, but it takes you to a staged picture of a game (you don't need the casualty models, they are there for dramatic effect)

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136050627_110765957591779_1173085911794523068_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2oSqpuGfH9IAX_a5pRi&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=9211fb3d0400f3b93c6b44168a832490&oe=601CFA67/url]

This one is of a demo game set during the Pelopannsian (sp) War

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136194087_110765850925123_6386315935300691538_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=5qgnxPOB2v8AX-o3r8S&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=82dccb407fa1c759a5483b418d5ab661&oe=601C5115/url]

[Jjonas]

I too feel that WAB and War and Conquest are good for setting up scenarios at that numbers scale- although a usual WAB style Greek force at 2000 pts might have 120-130 miniatures, with less if Spartans and elites are chosen.

Hoplomachia is a very rewarding deep dive in to the period, but the use of greek terminology for everything makes it a great learning experience but more difficult to access. But I would say it the most interesting game focused entirely on hoplites and their wars and not polluted by having to be a ruleset that covers everything from 3000 BC to 1500 BCE.

I find that for quick access and ease of pick up by gamers that Lion Rampant is easy to get into, generic enough to pretend that it is covering ancients as is- also there are magazine variants for ancient scenarios and lists which are easily altered for Greek wars.

This page has references to some of this as a version of LR that incorporates hoplites, phalanxes, and Galatians (Gauls).

https://ancientbattles.com/Galatians/galatian_warriors_AB_01.html

The more detailed lists are in the magazine referenced.

This photo shows an actual game of LR converted to this scenario. Not too much was altered from LR other than adding in stats for an elephant and a few alterations to equipment stats.  The nice thing about LR is the rules are streamlined and by printing out the stats on small cards players will have almost all they need to play and referring to lists is not needed. The limited troop types make memory easier. Just say no to x-bows or long bows!

https://ancientbattles.com/Galatians/Marcia_JJ_Galatians_003.jpg

Addendum: The Men of Bronze is an Osprey variant of the Lion Rampant/Pikemen's Lament series. It is obviously more dedicated to the period and uses similar mechanics. It might be a useful starting point for scenarios and units types. My issue was the activation system isn't as simple as LR, and a few other issues with how the units work- especially cavalry and skirmishers but some of those same issues occur in LR as well.
Even with LR most people in my area play with a house rules that ignores the first failed activation test so that players can have a better time each player turn- it is a system where a bad luck player could in theory not move or shoot at all turn after turn. I've suffered that.

My main issue with the Men in Bronze rules involved a mechanism where units supported each other by being physically moved behind each other, which breaks up my notion of a phalanx battle. Lion Rampant has no such supporting rules so its more streamlined. Again the Men in Bronze does  have troops adjusted for the period, which LR will need to be noodled with more.

[armchairgeneral]

Just to follow on from Jjonas, I am favouring LR as I don’t have the opportunity to game very often and a most of these games are Bolt Action so hoplite battles will be now and again, therefore I am after rule system that is easy to pick up.

[bulldogger2000]

I can't seem to get your links to work.   

Reading this bit, you may want to check out War & Conquest by Scarab Miniatures (written by me, so I have bias  ) - one of the requirements was Hoplite warfare (the book cover, theme and many of the internal pictures show Hoplite warfare, its something I am interested in and commissioned our own range of greek and spartan minis for) -

Turn activation is determined by dice roll each turn, winner choosing to go first or second. There are options to roll extra dice to try and influence the result, but the dice can be cruel - this can give much mirth and obviously the whole process makes game flow less predictable, you can decide to be very cautious or just flat out gamble when you make your moves.

As well as a straight fight, there are 'battle objectives' which are secret, (but can be changed if you have the resource) again this can be entertaining and the game lends to social interaction - it was another requirement - we want to enjoy an evenings gaming.

Formations are based as units, with figure removal but you can do a mix of single and multi base models if you wish (I do) - once a formation hits 'half strength' there is an impact on its morale.

finally a 2000 point army (which gives a decent game in around 2 1/2 hours or so, depending on how much chatting you do) can consist of Commander and other useful leaders, 3 x 24 hoplites, 2 x 16 Thracian/hill tribe types and a few units of skirmishers (who cannot 'charge' a proper formation - but can make a glancing attack - usually with mixed results as most skirmishers during this period are not exactly high impact troops  )

So that takes you just over 100 models for a force using a 6ft x 4ft table. If you look for the War & Conquest Facebook page you can see some pictures of my Troy game and some other Hoplite action - army lists are free

Sorry the post is a bit long and obviously in the Ancient period there are lots of rule sets and everybody has their own preference but we have always had some splendid hoplite (and Persian) battles with the rules

Probably best to pm me or drop by the pages mentioned above for further questions to avoid taking over the topic.

Not sure if these links works, but it takes you to a staged picture of a game (you don't need the casualty models, they are there for dramatic effect)

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136050627_110765957591779_1173085911794523068_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2oSqpuGfH9IAX_a5pRi&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=9211fb3d0400f3b93c6b44168a832490&oe=601CFA67/url]

This one is of a demo game set during the Pelopannsian (sp) War

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136194087_110765850925123_6386315935300691538_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=5qgnxPOB2v8AX-o3r8S&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=82dccb407fa1c759a5483b418d5ab661&oe=601C5115/url]

[brasidas19004]

Hmmm, this is kinda tough.

On the one hand, Mortal gods strikes me as a BS set of rules, and can be added to most of the suggestions, including Warhammer Ancients [total BS].

Hoplomachia is the most "authentic" set of rules, and it is free.

OTOH, it is not exactly beer and pretzels.  for that I would just play DBA.  Which is well, not free.

I guess it really depends on if you want a game that is really about hoplites as history reveals. If it is all the same to you, then you may as well try One-Hour Wargames, which is pretty cheap and has 30 scenarios.

Hope this is helpful, somehow.