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Author Topic: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year  (Read 22234 times)

Offline carlos marighela

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2010, 10:01:30 PM »
If you have not read Philip Roth's 'The Plot Against America' is a very good source for a somewhat realistic American civil war in the 1930:s.

Make sure you get the right work by the author. Basing your game on Portnoy's Complaint, whilst an interesting take might cause funny looks if staged at a convention.  :D

If you haven't already you should try googling Smedley Butler and coup. I have an excellent biography of Butler that devotes some space to the putative coup.
Em dezembro de '81
Botou os ingleses na roda
3 a 0 no Liverpool
Ficou marcado na história
E no Rio não tem outro igual
Só o Flamengo é campeão mundial
E agora seu povo
Pede o mundo de novo

Offline Westfalia Chris

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2010, 10:07:48 PM »
Make sure you get the right work by the author. Basing your game on Portnoy's Complaint, whilst an interesting take might cause funny looks if staged at a convention.  :D

Ewwww!  lol Just make sure they don't confuse milk bottles and Molotov cocktails... o_o

Although some kosher Mafia characters could be quite fun.

Offline Doc Twilight

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2010, 08:14:21 AM »
Make sure you get the right work by the author. Basing your game on Portnoy's Complaint, whilst an interesting take might cause funny looks if staged at a convention.  :D

If you haven't already you should try googling Smedley Butler and coup. I have an excellent biography of Butler that devotes some space to the putative coup.

Very familiar with Smedley Butler and the coup, and elements have been incorporated. However, after extensive research on the matter, I find other situations more plausible for the historical attitudes of the time. If for example, the coup had taken place while the nation was in a state of panic...

-Doc

Offline Tacgnol

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2010, 09:05:42 AM »
Untied States
-Doc

Doc, I think you just stumbled over the perfect title for your setting  :D.

Offline Doc Twilight

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2010, 07:29:25 PM »
Doc, I think you just stumbled over the perfect title for your setting  :D.
:D
I think you may be on to something..


-Doc


Offline Westfalia Chris

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2010, 08:13:44 PM »
Quote from: Tacgnol
Quote
Untied States
-Doc
Doc, I think you just stumbled over the perfect title for your setting  Cheesy. :D

I think you may be on to something..

-Doc


If only that pesky music group hadn't been there first! ;)

Rather interested in that, though. I'm curious to see how it will differ from the Crimson Skies approach. :)

Offline leadfool

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2010, 04:12:51 AM »
How about
States of Panic or The Panic State
as the title.
FOUNDER OF THE D'ISREALI ARMY
_______________________________

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.  Liberty is a well armed Lamb, contesting the vote.
B Franklin.    ----

Offline Republicofalnwick

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2010, 03:18:40 PM »
Great to read all of this. As a travelling Irishman who first learned wargaming during my adolesence in Wisconsin, I find all this fascinating. I have a real interest in the American Left in this period, and people like John Reed, Woody Guthrie et al. America had some of the most radical left-wingers in the western world at that time. I might just have to introduce a Sacco and Vanzetti battalion into my VBCW games. I already have a unit of rabidly right-wing Catholics, (including nuns with machine guns), who are armed by ex-pats from Boston. The thought of the Hatfields coming out on whichever side the McCoys WEREN'T on, the Shiners settling a few scores against the State Troopers, and guys in their old football helmets setting up roadblocks on country roads... You might even get the IRA running guns BACK into America!

When does that next flight leave?

Offline SBMiniaturesGuy

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2010, 05:33:39 PM »
California at the time was not yet a center of Leftist activities, strongest in Hollywood perhaps, but Socialists by no means dominated the State. Which way does the Bear Republic jump?
Play the game, not the players!
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Offline coggon

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2010, 09:33:03 PM »
I've not read it, but you might also want to look up a copy of "It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis
"MY enthusiasm greatly exceeds my talent"-Me

Offline leadfool

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2010, 08:51:24 AM »
So explain this to us lesser beings who fail to see your version of alt. history.
The 2 main factions are the contitutionalists and the Nationalist.  So what is their difference.

If FDR got killed by G. Zangara in Feb 1933, does not John Vance Garner, the VP elect and former speaker of the house get become pres?  Then no New Deal etc.  The 20th amendment outlines the succession if the President elect dies before the start of term, and was ratified in Jan 1933, just weeks before FDR would have been shot by Zangara.  Mind you if the killing happens in 1932....

Overall I really like the idea.  I'm thinking on painting up a coalition of black separatists, jewish mobsters and an urban union on one side versus a coalition of some sort of Nationalsit Republican guard (BUF figures), the NRA (IRA figures) and a rural union.

It should be fun whatever the format.

Offline Doc Twilight

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2010, 11:26:40 AM »
So explain this to us lesser beings who fail to see your version of alt. history.
The 2 main factions are the contitutionalists and the Nationalist.  So what is their difference.

If FDR got killed by G. Zangara in Feb 1933, does not John Vance Garner, the VP elect and former speaker of the house get become pres?  Then no New Deal etc.  The 20th amendment outlines the succession if the President elect dies before the start of term, and was ratified in Jan 1933, just weeks before FDR would have been shot by Zangara.  Mind you if the killing happens in 1932....

Overall I really like the idea.  I'm thinking on painting up a coalition of black separatists, jewish mobsters and an urban union on one side versus a coalition of some sort of Nationalsit Republican guard (BUF figures), the NRA (IRA figures) and a rural union.

It should be fun whatever the format.

Fair question:)

I have to keep some of this close to the vest, for copyright purposes, but essentially, what happens is that the attempt on FDR causes a real panic in the country, a sort of revisiting of the Red Scare, inspired by memories of the Wall Street Bombing, and more recently, the Bonus March in 1932. Two competing groups of protesters converge on Washington, complicating matters. (This is based, in part, upon a plan by veterans of the Bonus Army to march on Washington AGAIN in 1933, partly because FDR had expressed opposition to paying the bonus, not a widely known tidbit.)

Hoover is pressured, because of these and other events, to create a sort of "Homeland Security" department, in this case the General Secretary, who will be responsible for coordination of security and prosecuting the "radical Communists" who are suspected to have played a role in the assassination of FDR, as well as the Bonus March and the Wall Street Bombing. (Historical basis for this actually pretty solid. Communist Party, USA -was- planning an armed insurrection at the time, and Giuseppe Zangara, though he never actually claimed any party membership, rambled about killing capitalists and was found to have a copy of "Toward Marxist America" in his possession when his lodgings were searched.)

The General Secretary, Charles Lindbergh, then begins a series of security measures intended to assure the American people that they are safe. One of these measures results in a very badly botched raid on CPUSA headquarters in New York, partly because of arrogant and improper planning by J.Edgar Hoover, which turns the Communists out in force and causes them to adopt a guerilla stance. Another involves attempting to mobilize the National Guard to help "put down the insurrection" due to the size and relative unpreparedness of the US Military at the time, which in itself leads to conflict with states opposed to the use of their National Guard forces for that purpose.

Garner, meanwhile, has not been sworn in when all this has happened, and is essentially powerless to stop it. By the time he -does- take office, Lindbergh is deeply entrenched, and widely supported. Eventually, this leads to his resignation, and the selection of Lindbergh to take his place. There was some suggestion early in discussion that Garner would have supported the Nationalists, but I just don't see it. The man was a real Constitutionalist, and did support the New Deal in as much as he felt it could be constitutionally implemented.

There's a lot more to this, but those are the basics, at any rate.

I think it works out well, and seems more plausible to me than simply marching to Washington and demanding that Roosevelt hand over power to a "General Secretary", which is essentially what the Business Plotters ended up settling on. The problem is that I simply can't see FDR giving up so easily, and I don't think the Business Plot would ultimately have succeeded if handled in that way (though I do believe that the plot was real, and that Smedley Butler wasn't just making it all up, as some have alleged). Granted, that's just my take on it, and your mileage may vary:)

The "Nationalists" are the disparate Americans who support the creation of the Secretary of General Affairs, for a variety of reasons, Many are motivated by patriotism, many by fear of the threat posed by Communism and the radical Socialism that is espoused by supporters of Roosevelt. There are also the major industrialists (Prescott Bush, JP Morgan, etc.) who see this as an opportunity to pursue the agenda of establishing a Fascist government in America (the Fascists being incredibly popular with prominent Americans of the era). So you'd have people as diverse as Charles Lindbergh, Al Smith, and Marcus Garvey involved here.

The Constitutionalists, again simplifying things here, are those who oppose this agenda. In this case, you've got folks like Vice President Charles Curtis and Judge Harry Truman.

Both contain members of the major political parties, though it's fair to say that few, if any, members of the American Socialist Party would openly support the Nationalist cause, given that Lindbergh was fervently anti-Socialist (through a mistaken belief that Socialism and Communism were one in the same, and a general distrust of 'Left Wing' ideas). It's not really fair to say that the Nationalists are all "Right Wing" types, whereas the Constitutionalists are "Left Wingers", as there are Moderates, Liberals, and Conservatives (at least as they are defined by the politics of the 1930s) supporting both of these movements.

There are also numerous local movements. Kentucky is attempting to maintain neutrality and has established what is essentially an Anarcho-Socialist government heavily dominated by the Mining and Industrial Unions. White and Black Nativist movements are growing in power and influence in the South. Communists are fighting a guerilla war, from the mountains of New York State to the coastal cities and settlements (it has been proposed by one contributor that they would have seized control of Seattle, for instance, by the end of 1934). The Mafia has seized control of Chicago. Street fighting is raging in Gary, Indiana.  There is a lot more going on, but of course I haven't defined every single state, and how it splits. The essential thing about the period covered by this book is fragmentation and consolidation, rather than huge power blocs ala the first American Civil War. Those will eventually come, but not during the 1934-1936 period (which is the focus of the first book).

The military, such as it is (fairly small in 1933) is split as to what the proper reaction to events should be. Some are totally in support of the Nationalist faction in Washington, while others are seeing a serious threat to civil liberties. The Navy, for example, eventually splits between the two groups.

Most of the officers in the fleet, the vast majority of naval aviators, and the carriers, go with the Nationalists. Many of the sailors in the surface fleet, however, choose to align themselves with the Constitutionalists. The Submarine crews each go their own way. As a result, the Nationalists find themselves with a large number of crew and officers, but without enough ships to put them in, so Naval Infantry Brigades are formed.

All and all, a real mess. Most of them based upon actual political groups and events, or planned events, during the period.

I apologize for the rambling, LF, but I hope that at least gives you some insight as to how I'm thinking. If you have any more questions, even more specific ones, feel free to ask, and I'll do what I can to answer. Obviously, I have to keep some of this close to the chest at the moment, but I'll do what I can to try to help out.

And I -really- like the way you're going with you're proposed units and painting plans.

Jen, who is writing the sections of the book on the American Fascist Party Militia (the Silvershirts) is using the BUF figures to great effect for this purpose. I, meanwhile, have assumed that most of the Unions (but NOT all of them) will have gone with the Constitutionalists and/or supported the Socialists. Not necessarily the Communists, as the American Communist Party was quite loyal to Comintern directorates at the time - one of which specifically prohibited membership in any organized Union.

I have used the Brigade Games "Harlem Hellfighters" to represent Kentucky Defense Force troops, and I'm using Great War US infantry to represent US Army elements. Jen has used the Brigade Games WW1 US Marines to represent some of her own regulars.
Vehicles are a real mixed bag, but I've found justification for using most of the interwar vehicles that my own company manufactures, along with several others.

It's a fun project, and essentially open to all kinds of crazy, entertaining ideas. I hope it catches on.:) Again, if you have any other questions, comments, ideas, etc, I'd love to hear 'em.

Incidentally, if you plan to go to Kublacon this year, we'll be playtesting one of the scenarios from the book, the Battle of La Grange, Kentucky.

-Alex

p.s.

FDR isn't dead yet;)





Offline leadfool

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2010, 07:12:23 AM »
Alex,
Thanks for the update.  This is great.  I might  change my coalition make up.  The idea of giving the Nationalists a naval infantry force as well as some military or Industriist hired Pinkertons is appealing. 


Offline Remington

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2010, 06:28:11 PM »
I wonder when the time will come for AV German CW... Sounds interesting though. I am learning some interesting things about interwar US history just by reading this (and looking in wikipedia).

Offline Arlequín

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Re: "A Very American Civil War" (or something thereabouts) Coming This Year
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2010, 12:59:32 AM »
Germany sort of had a civil war of sorts during the twenties and early thirties iirc... then some Austrian guy came along and sorted it all out.  :?

 

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