15mm Pulp? Is it time?

[brigadegames]

the 15mm figures I did took more than 6 years to breakeven.

[Barry S]

Some people don't want to have two sets of terrain, don't have lots of table space...
-Eli

Eli,

This pretty much sums up why I use 15mm for all my gaming including skirmish games such as BAB and GASLIGHT.

[Doc Twilight]

the 15mm figures I did took more than 6 years to breakeven.

And that's one of the reasons that 15mm Pulp is not a going concern, at least from a manufacturer's perspective. 15mm Armies are just that, Armies, in most cases, because 15mm miniatures are rather difficult to produce in sufficient quantity while at the same time managing to make any sort of profit (or at least break even). You need to sell them in a way that will encourage consumers to buy large packs of them, rather than buying them individually.

Consider that 15mm sculpts usually cost as much as 28mm sculpts, and that you need twice as many cast up, in a typical spin, to make them profitable.
Add in to this that Pulp is very much a niche interest in wargaming. (Say it ain't so Doc! Well, it is, sadly), and that most war gamers expect to pay no more than, say, 1.50 per 15mm figure, and you've got yourself a real dilemma.

It's just not viable. So while there may be interest in 15mm Pulp, I seriously doubt that you'll see a dedicated range until a better, cheaper way of developing miniatures is developed.

I do think 15mm Pulp would be fun, and I've looked into it, but that's the reality of the situation.

-Doc

[Mr. Peabody]

Gosh, they would have to be tasty little pulp 15's to win me over... But I could see it working well for car chases and the like.

Based on the pure visual excitement of Mr. Murch's display & game at Trumpeters Salute in Vancouver this year several of us decided to embark on a 28mm pulp project.

C'mon B'6, join us... We provide the terrain, we provide the peril, you have nothing to loose...

[Wirelizard]

Based on the pure visual excitement of Mr. Murch's display & game at Trumpeters Salute in Vancouver this year several of us decided to embark on a 28mm pulp project.

He does that to people, doesn't he? Me, for example. And look where that leads. 

15mm was where I got started in miniature wargaming; for massed combat without breaking the budget it's awesome; for modern/SF stuff with long-ranged weapons and more vehicles on the table it's ideal. For character-driven stuff like pulp tends to be? Not so much.

28mm allows so much more room for characters & personality on individual figures.

[Major Payne]

He does that to people, doesn't he? Me, for example. And look where that leads. 

15mm was where I got started in miniature wargaming; for massed combat without breaking the budget it's awesome; for modern/SF stuff with long-ranged weapons and more vehicles on the table it's ideal. For character-driven stuff like pulp tends to be? Not so much.

28mm allows so much more room for characters & personality on individual figures.

Couldn't have said it better. 

In a game I presented last Saturday the players prefered to see more character development and application of skills (Omitted) over larger unit deployment.
(Each player ((9)) 'Pushed' a unit of about 10 figures in an abbreviated combat resolution system.) 
Seems the gamers at our club prefer a bit more depth rather than massed combat capability.

The game genre probably patterns it self to the core movies that support it like: The "Indiana Jones" series, and "The Mummy" series, to name only two.

Could it be that the players bring a set of expectations of what a "Pulp" game should be? 

[The Hooded Claw]

There are plenty of smaller companies that have done a good job making smaller collections of hero models for everything from uniformed cops, survivalists, terrorists, bank robbers, etc.. I think there is a market for 15mm pulp heroes.

Blue Moon Manufacturing just released several packs of 15mm pirates, townsfolk, cowboys, etc that have a tone of character. They are charging $15 for 31 cowboys on foot, $22 for 38 Old West townsfolk, $35 for 30 mounted cowboys. For pirates they have 10 different captains for $8 with crew and gun packs available as well. The sculpting on these figs looks quite nice and the figures appear to have a lot of character.

I am not saying that 15mm will replace 28mm, nor should it, but for those who already have a commitment or sizable investment to 15mm it would sure be nice to have the option. Perhaps it is time for the pulp folks to contact Blue Moon. Afterall, they have extensive lines of 28mm pulp already.

[P_Clapham]

I'm very impressed with the Cowboy line.  Combined with some Flames or War Germans, and I could see 15mm being used for Pulpy WWII games.

[Doc Twilight]

There are plenty of smaller companies that have done a good job making smaller collections of hero models for everything from uniformed cops, survivalists, terrorists, bank robbers, etc.. I think there is a market for 15mm pulp heroes.

Blue Moon Manufacturing just released several packs of 15mm pirates, townsfolk, cowboys, etc that have a tone of character. They are charging $15 for 31 cowboys on foot, $22 for 38 Old West townsfolk, $35 for 30 mounted cowboys. For pirates they have 10 different captains for $8 with crew and gun packs available as well. The sculpting on these figs looks quite nice and the figures appear to have a lot of character.

I am not saying that 15mm will replace 28mm, nor should it, but for those who already have a commitment or sizable investment to 15mm it would sure be nice to have the option. Perhaps it is time for the pulp folks to contact Blue Moon. Afterall, they have extensive lines of 28mm pulp already.

A couple points, if I may.

First of all, Blue Moon is not a small company. They are quite a bit larger than my own operation, and they are an affiliate of the largest historical miniatures manufacturer in the United States (Old Glory). The "small companies" you're talking of are doing 25mm figures as heroes, which are considerably less risky to market as individuals. The "small" 15mm manufacturers (Rebel, for example) are making their money by doing troop packs (ie: soldiers for army builders), rather than as individual personalities. Also, Western Figs sell better than Pulp figs, in general. I don't know why, it's just the way that goes. And I'm not sure how Blue Moon is planning to make a profit on this, except that, most likely, they do their own casting in house (or Old Glory does it) which reduces their costs considerably.

Also, I wouldn't call their Pulp ranges "extensive". They have a handful of sets. Their Science Fiction sets aren't Pulp, and their Horror sets aren't Pulp. It's only a small fraction of what they do.

There may be a market for 15mm Pulp, but it is not a market in which anybody is going to make any money, unless said individuals have -large- amounts of capital to sink into a project. Pulp makes up a tiny sliver of a niche market. We're talking about fifteen percent, maybe, of the total miniatures sold these days. Those of us in the 28mm business of making/selling pulp are just barely breaking even in many cases, hence the reason that several are diversifying their periods, covering other things in other genres.

The only alternative might be to do this via a subscription service, but beyond that, I just don't see a skirmish game focusing primarily upon individual characters as being profitable in 15mm. You'd need to have a complete package to even hope to attract business. Terrain, rules, a complete range of figures (not just one or two packs), etc.

Let me put this another way. Four 15mm figures might cost around $400 to get sculpted. Add in the cost of a master mold ($100), plus the cost of a production mold ($50), then add in the cost "per spin" of around (and this is being conservative) 2.00.  Assuming you want to have, say, a minimum of ten spins, there's another $20 bucks.

You've now spent $570 dollars on this range. Not bad, right? Except that you have to break even to make the investment "worthwhile". That means making at least what you paid back in sales.

Ok. We have forty figures and $570.00 to make back. That means that, if I sold the entire set, each and every figure, I'd have to sell them at $14.75 EACH to make back a profit of any kind. And Pulp gamers know that the majority of Pulp games involve a handful of character figures, backed up by troops in perhaps larger numbers.

I'm not saying that there isn't a chance this could work, and I don't mean to dishearten anyone. I think it's a wonderful idea. It's just that the reality is that 15mm skirmish scale is simply not practicable economically for the Pulp Genre.

-Doc

[The Hooded Claw]

I might point out that Rebel offers 20+ different packs of what could be considered skirmish-level figures - special forces teams, SWAT, hostages, zombie hunters, etc.

I wasn't saying that New Moon was small.They qwere included as an example of how figures for that sort of scaled game could be done on a sales model other than packs of 6-8 figs.
You are right about their pulp line. I was thinking of yours actually (got my companies crossed mid-typing).

I will say that from an economics standpoint, that one of the prohibitive factors involved in pulp as a successful genre might just be the scale. From my own experiences I was not able to keep up with 28mm Pulp because the variety of figures needed to keep an ongoing series of games interesting was cost-prohibitive in 28mm. Buying a dozeninterwar soldiers for just a couple of battles and then having to buy a dozen or more mobsters for a few more, then having to buy a whole gang of Chinese bandits, etc, etc..

In 15mm if I need Nazis, I just borrow a few from my FOW stuff as well as vehicles and otherwise. If I need Back of Beyond hostiles, I can borrow from my 15mm RCW, SCW, etc. Dinoaurs are more affordible in 15mm as are lost world natives and the like.

If 15mm could successfully make the jump to 15mm it might give the genre as a gaming medium a shot in the arm.

[P_Clapham]

Well like I said before, there is 1:72 scale.  The plastic models for it are fairly extensive and diverse.  They match up nicely with matchbox cars and many of the plastic model kits.  The figures are large enough to have a good deal of character, but small enough to be affordable and use a smaller amount of space.  Here are some old pictures of my adventuring chaps, some Afrika Korps and Skeletons.

Our five Brave Heroes


Cornered by the Germans!


The Ahnenerbe Expedition Advances!


Investigators vs the Undead!


Most of the figures come from Caesar.  For the German army pack it was 37 figures for a little more than $10 for me.  I estimate the figures cost around 30 to 40 cents a pop.  As they are plastic, the miniatures are very easy to convert or kitbash.

[The Hooded Claw]

1/72 is a great scale if you haven't already invested heavily in other scales. I almost made a shift to 1/72 myself a while back and still buy them as starter minis for my daughters who both want to play miniatures games.

I am still not convinced that 15mm Pulp is a no-go. From my experience with 15mm gamers there is a willingness to pay more for a handful of models with good character and nobody out there producing small, skirmish level sets of figs seems to think they need to be sold at $14/fig. I understand the numbers you are using there, but others seem to be managing otherwise.

Looking at what is out there somemore, I found the following -

Rebel Minis sells theres in packs of approx 20 figs for about $11 or 12 figs for $7. I will buy 12 figs for $7. They even have sets of 4 figs for 2.99

Khurasan offers a trio of Pulp Adventurers for 2.99 and Lizardmen at 5 for 2.99 among others.

I think that if it was done, it would all come down how the figures were grouped together into sets. Pulp relies on a lot of archetypes and most fans of pulp are going to use all of those archetypes at some point. Grouping archetypes into themed sets would get the count up on a particular casting allowing for the filling of molds.

As an example using the model that Rebel and Blue Moon seem to be using you could having sets likes -

Cops and Robbers - 20 figs 1/3 uniformed officers with various weapons, and 2/3 various crooks, thugs, bank robbers, etc with assorted weapons and character.

G-Men and Gangsters - This is an easy one because 20 guys in suits, hats, jackets, etc can be painted and used as either.

Heroes and Villains (10 for $8 or so) - This is where you put your assorted Pulp heroes and their nemesis. Steel-jawed adventurers, Jungle Lords, Gal Fridays, Good Doctors, Rocket Heroes, Shadowy Crusdaders and their like can be mixed in various combos with Mad scientists, Criminal Masterminds, Fu Manchu, Dragon Lady, Cult Leader, etc.

The fact that a couple of companies are already doing projects that are close or that support games that function on the same level as a lot of pulp games would seem to indicate that it is not impossible but quite possible.

-Eli

[P_Clapham]

I wish this was being done with the 1:72 scale miniatures.  I've had to pick up quite a few packs to get a good collection of pulp minis.  Don't know of any companies that do decent looking gangsters in that scale.

I think that if it was done, it would all come down how the figures were grouped together into sets. Pulp relies on a lot of archetypes and most fans of pulp are going to use all of those archetypes at some point. Grouping archetypes into themed sets would get the count up on a particular casting allowing for the filling of molds.

As an example using the model that Rebel and Blue Moon seem to be using you could having sets likes -

Cops and Robbers - 20 figs 1/3 uniformed officers with various weapons, and 2/3 various crooks, thugs, bank robbers, etc with assorted weapons and character.

G-Men and Gangsters - This is an easy one because 20 guys in suits, hats, jackets, etc can be painted and used as either.

Heroes and Villains (10 for $8 or so) - This is where you put your assorted Pulp heroes and their nemesis. Steel-jawed adventurers, Jungle Lords, Gal Fridays, Good Doctors, Rocket Heroes, Shadowy Crusdaders and their like can be mixed in various combos with Mad scientists, Criminal Masterminds, Fu Manchu, Dragon Lady, Cult Leader, etc.

The fact that a couple of companies are already doing projects that are close or that support games that function on the same level as a lot of pulp games would seem to indicate that it is not impossible but quite possible.

-Eli

[The Hooded Claw]

Well, so far it's not being done with 15mm Pulp either. Modern Ops, Sci-fi, Horror, and a few smatterings of other genres are where I am seeing most of the skirmish-level 15mm being made. Peter Pig has done pirates and Old West in 15mm for a long while before Blue Moon started.

Hopefully somebody will decide to give 15mm Pulp a go. Even a few clever offerings would go miles.

-Eli

[P_Clapham]

Depending on your brand of pulp, Zombies, Mummies, Cultists and other things that go bump in the night would be needed.  For either scale.  Caesar does have a nice undead boxed set, but I'm in more need for mummies not skeletons.