Wars of the Roses question

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Hi All,

Got the Perrys Earl of Sailsbury figure and am wondering how to paint him. He is wearing a tabard so presume its the Neville colours of red with white saltire on it? Can anyone confirm this for me?

cheers Tim

[Ruarigh]

"Standards, Badges and Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses" gives Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury as Red on the figure's right hand side and black on the left. His badges are a seated griffin in yellow with its wings displayed ("a griffin sejant, wings displayed or") and a green eagle with its wings displayed. This suggests that there would be no white saltire or ragged staff. Instead you would get either the griffin or the eagle.

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Thats brilliant ta! Not sure im up to painting the badges but black and red will be easy enough, thanks a lot for the help.
cheers Tim

[commissarmoody]

I think some of the old Games workshop transfers could work for the griffen and eagle.

[timg]

Theres an idea, are they still available?

[commissarmoody]

I dont see why not, I know they used to sale them in seprat packs, drop them a line and ask.

[Arlequín]

The tabard of the Earl himself would be his coat of arms, those of his retinue would be in his livery colours. I'm not certain that the 'Livery Colours' book got the colours right though. The Earl of Northumberland's forces (Salisbury's rival and neighbour) are also given as Red/Black for this time, which might be a bit confusing in local scraps. I've no alternative to offer though, other than a wild guess.

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Im really glad the Earl of Warwick aint in a tabard then, would hate to paint his coat of arms!

I always thought Sailsburys mens livery would have been just red with his badge on as his flag is all red with white saltire but the refference kindly quoted by Ruarigh is a very good source and i do believe his son Montagues wore red and black so can do that and swap a flag and use them as both.  Guess there will always be some confusion with some of the liveries from this period. At least Warwicks livery is straightforward.

Another question just to be a pest; Oxford, were his mens coats tawny/orange ?

Thanks everyone for their help.

[Ruarigh]

Yes, John de Vere, Earl of Oxford dressed his retinue in tawney.

Relating the heraldic banner colour to the livery colour is a path fraught with peril. Where I cannot find other livery colours, I do it but in many, if not most cases, where the two are known the livery colour is not the same as the main field of the heraldic banner. There is an article on the Vexillia website that you might find interesting. It discusses just this issue:
http://www.vexillia.ltd.uk/freezywater/wotr.html
It is the standards (the big swallow-tailed things) that carry the livery colours.

Hope this helps,
Ruarigh

[timg]

Helps a lot, thanks for taking the time mate.

[Arlequín]

I always thought Sailsburys mens livery would have been just red with his badge on as his flag is all red with white saltire but the refference kindly quoted by Ruarigh is a very good source and i do believe his son Montagues wore red and black so can do that and swap a flag and use them as both.  Guess there will always be some confusion with some of the liveries from this period. At least Warwicks livery is straightforward.

Liveries changed from time to time and my thoughts are that Montagu's stem from when he became Earl of Northumberland and used the 'Percy' colours for continuity's sake. However it might be the Percy livery that's wrong, particularly as the HYW Earl used 'russet, yellow and tawny' and so did later Earls. Otherwise I'm pretty happy to give the thumbs up to the Freezywater book... they do however mention that some guesswork was involved with some liveries.

Coat of arms colours were commonly used for liveries, but not always and some didn't even approximate the coat of arms. I also imagine that permanent members of the retinue had a higher quality of livery coat, while the troops raised en-masse might have had 'mass-produced' versions. I also liked the idea presented in the livery book that particularly large retinues might have used different badges for each sub-unit, who would have a smaller version of the standard featuring just 'their' badge, while the 'command group' may have had a larger standard featuring all of its badges.

[Maichus]

Also got the good earl in the post today... has your's also a very bad sculpted face/mouth or have I just got a miscast?

His lower teeth seems to have disappeared and his upper teeth seem to have fused together with his lips/mouth and his nose seems to be cut off... 

Rest of the pack is fine, though.

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He does have a bit of a odd face, think its the casting thats done that on mine. Hoping to paint him tonight well finish him, done his armour already.

[fastolfrus]

Also got the good earl in the post today... has your's also a very bad sculpted face/mouth or have I just got a miscast?

His lower teeth seems to have disappeared and his upper teeth seem to have fused together with his lips/mouth and his nose seems to be cut off... 

Rest of the pack is fine, though.

Maybe he's just very ugly ?

[Maichus]

Fair point. 

I guess, I'll just give him a head swap with one of the plastic ones.