Heraldry help

[Spong]

Hi all,

One of my current side-projects is a Medieval army for 'historical'/fantasy gaming (I say 'historical' because although I want to have an army from the period I don't want it to necessarily be a reproduction of one that actually existed - think more 'alternative history').

I happen to have some of the fantastic old 5th Ed Perry Bretonnian models; a unit of knights of the realm (mostly plastic, some metal) and a unit of metal 'billmen'. I'm doing a spot of conversion work to make them fit more with my idea of how a mid-to-late 14th century force should look.

My main problem is deciding on a paint scheme, I'm not particularly keen on the whole 'all the colours of the rainbow' style, however, I am a stickler for historical accuracy (to the extent that this is a fictitious army - but I still want it to be believable), which leads to something of a conundrum. I have a number of books on the medieval period and have put time into studying heraldry but there are some areas where I am still unsure as the subject often seems very vague or sometimes  even contradictory.

My idea was to take a 'retinue' approach to the composition and colours in having a Knightly lord in his Coat of Arms and his followers in the form of subordinate knights, men-at-arms and sergeants in his livery colours, at most perhaps 4-5 cavalrymen and a few dozen infantry. Similar to Ridley Scott's portrayal in Kingdom of Heaven, though perhaps not so extreme.

Also see this wonderful miniatures gallery for some idea of what I mean: http://www.mini-universe.de/THS-Team%20Games/Worringen%201286%20-%20The%20Baron%20Wars/Worringen%20-%20Mini%20Art%20Con%202008/index.html


Now, although I don't put much stock in these 'Find your own Coat of Arms' websites they are nontheless useful as a starting point especially when coming up with heraldry for fictitious feudal armies. I looked up my family name Briden and found several versions; Scottish, German and French. I liked the German one the most, this being a white fluer-de-lys on a black field; Sable, a Fluer-de-Lys Argent.

More or less like this:


(This is actually the French Raimbeaucourt Coat-of-Arms, being a Fluer-de-Lys épanouie with those extra wispy bits inbetween the leaves but it was the only example I could find that was free .)

The difficulty comes in when you look at how the Coat-of-Arms translates into the livery of a Lord's followers as there are several options.

Only the Lord was entitled to display his coat-of-arms, his followers had to wear a livery coat and display a household 'badge', however, although livery colours could be in the main colours of the Lord's own coat of arms (so in this case black and white) they did not have to be, it was down to the Lord's personal preference as there were no heraldric rules governing liveries.
The Percy family of England, for example, had Blue and Gold as the colours of their arms, but their livery was coloured Russet and Tenne (not sure, but I think a coppery colour and a tan colour).
Likewise with badges, the badge could be the same icon as used in the Lord's coat-of-arms (in this case a Fleur-de-Lys) but again they did not have to be, apparently a completely different symbol could be chosen (sometimes the symbol would have relevance to the family or individual, or the region they owned, sometimes it might even be a visual play on words.)

Another example, Henry Stafford's Coat of Arms was a red chevron on a gold field, his livery however was red and black and the badge his followers wore was the silver swan of the De Bohun's.
Conversely, with the Percy family I mentioned above, although their livery was different colours to their coat of arms, the badge worn by their followers was the same golden lion they wore on the family arms.

In terms of painting my miniatures I've thought of a few ideas but I'm not sure which one to go with, if anyone has any suggestions on which they think would be best I would be glad to hear them.

1.) Lord wears Black with White Fleur-de-Lys. Followers wear white and red livery with black shield badge displaying white fleur-de-lys.

2.) As above but followers' livery is white and black with the above badge (no red involved).

3.) Lord wears Black with White Fleur-de-Lys. Followers wear white and red livery with black axe badge (non-Coat-of-Arms badge).

4.) As above but red axe badge instead.

5.) As above but livery is white and black with red axe badge (as opposed to white and red with red axe badge.)

To my knowledge none of these are historically innacurate (in as far as our modern understanding of heraldry, coats-of-arms, livery and badges can know).
I suspect from what I have read it was actually more common for the badge worn by followers to be completely different from the coat of arms symbol. Though using the same badge was by no means unheard of (as with the Percy's).
I am unsure about the livery issue, it seems there are as many examples where the livery uses different colours to the coat of arms as there are where the colours of the arms and livery are the same.
Option 1 & 2 might be slightly less historically accurate but I think would make for more visual cohesion. Conversely the other options might be more historically accurate but look less cohesive.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[OSHIROmodels]

I would go woth number three as this leaves you with a bit more scope than the others. You could use the troops with the axe badge for a different lord if the fancy (or need) takes you.

A small answer to a large post but I did read it all 

cheers

James

[theoldschool]

Livery colours were based on the noble's standard, not his coat of arms. So in the example of Percy, Earl of Northumberland his standard was red over black showing the badge of a lion. So his livery would be red and black with red on the left (the top colour) and a white lion badge. The red would always be on the left, even from the rear.  But his arms were a blue lion on a yellow field. Livery did not follow the rules of heraldry regarding colours and metals.

His banner would carry his coat of arms. Standards were not carried in the field - they were just too unweildy. Instead they marked the noble's tent in camp.

Freezywater Publications do an excellent range of publications covering standards, livery colours and banners of the Wars of the Roses. Hope this helps.

Pat

[Arlequín]

It is thought that a smaller standard would be carried in the field, possibly each 'company' (where a noble had a large contingent) bearing a different badge. This would explain why some noble's personal standards bear several badges. Standards were more likely than banners to be carried, especially as some coats of arms could be quite complicated and confusion did occur. This happened even with standards (i.e. Oxford's men at Barnet).

The key thing about liveries were that they would be as unique as possible, something quite difficult with a limited range of colours. There was also a multi-level of livery usage, wherein a lord acting as a retainer of another would have his troops in their retainee's colours rather than his own, but might bear his own personal badge to indicate his contingent. Alternatively you might get a personage distributing his badge alone to be worn with whatever livery the troops were wearing (Prince of Wales in 1471 for example).

Liveries tended towards one or two colours during the 15th Centuries and earlier, but went to three colours (or two colours split into three bands) towards the end of this and into the 16th Century. Livery jackets varied in quality too, the high end ones might be edged or fringed in a contrasting colour, whilst the low end ones might just be two panels sewn together with an opening for the head. Household men would obviously tend to be a bit showy if the lord's purse could run to it. 

If there were any hard and fast rules regarding liveries, these have been lost to us now. All of the options you've chosen for the liveries are fine to me, as are the badges. It's down to personal taste really and given the coat of arms, I'd probably go for black/white livery, with a white fleur de lis on a black shield on the white half of the livery. You could also quarter your lord's coat of arms with a contrasting family's (mother's or wife's) to make him stand out a little.