Sikhs and Britain

[Galloping Major]

Nah Plynkes, wasn't at all going down any kind of master race route, just thought I'd help to answer the original question by pointing out a bit more of the Anglo-Sikh relationship and their prominence in Anglo-Indian military history to someone who clearly stated a lack of knowledge of the subject.

After all, the majority of the EIC regiments (especially foot) who defeated the Sikhs in both Wars against them (alongside a few Queen's Regiments) were, oh yes... Hindus.  

Perhaps I could have given equal billing to all other Indian sub-continent historic military organisations, but that wouldn't have answered the question, and taken up loads more time.

I do very much like and respect Sikhs, but please don't assume that means I denegrate anyone or everyone else in comparison  ... I don't really think that was what you were inferring, was it?  

[Plynkes]

Oh, no. I didn't assume you meant that at all. I wasn't meaning to attack you. I just thought it an interesting point, because I think we colonial gamers do sometimes tend to accept the assumption that certain Indian races are just automatically better fighters (at least on the tabletop). The Pakistanis bought into it in a big way, and it seriously bit them in the ass!

All I'm saying is that generalisations, both positive and negative, while sometimes useful, need to be taken with caution and a pinch of salt. You'll find plenty of Sikhs who aren't brave, don't have a soldierly bearing, and aren't particularly loyal if you look. I've met Sikhs I liked, some I was indifferent to, and a couple I just outright couldn't stand. Just like folks from any other culture, people are people. I think us wargamers can go a bit overboard with our gushing praise of Sikhs, because their soldiers make very cool toys for us to play with. But the full spectrum of humanity is there.

Oh, I don't know what I'm trying to say. This is getting a bit serious and deep for me. I'm going to go back to making daft remarks, I think. 

[Galloping Major]

No problem, my parthian shot was more than a little tongue in cheek. I didn't really think you wanted to leave the subject behind and turn it into one of those "more PC than thou" discussions 



www.gallopingmajorwargames.com

[Arlequín]

You know you can get yourself into a bit of bother if you swallow wholesale all that "martial races" tosh that the Raj brainwashed itself and its subjects with for 100 years. The Pakistanis convinced themselves that a Punjabi, a Pashtun or a Baluchi was worth ten weak and timid Hindus, because the Brits had told them it was so. They found to their cost that a weak and timid Hindu with a PIAT and some guts behind it brews up a Sherman just as well as anyone else, and the Martial Races theory was left bleeding in the dust of Rajasthan and the mud of Bengal. 

Yep, history does tend to rub people's noses in the muck of a misconceived but believed stereotype.

[ErikB]

Thanks for your answers, folks.  I know this is a stereotype discussion.  I recognize that and accept it as such.

But I have to start somewhere.  Here is a fascinating culture and a cool opportunity to learn something from my neighbors but I'm just a dumb ol' white guy so I'm trying to educate myself a bit.

Also, re: the different races/groups/cultures/whatever - in wargames (games, mind you), are there differences between Hindu and Sikh and Muslim units' stats? 

For example, Copplestone makes Muslim and Sikh WWI Brit soldiers (you can tell the difference by their "hats").  Would these guys have different characteristics in wargames?  Just wondering.  Yes, I know it's a stereotype and may have nothing at all to do with reality.

[Plynkes]

Sikh troops do often get better stats than other Indian Army units in war games. Their fearsome reputation precedes them, and one certainly could make an argument that their historical performance justifies it.

The Sikh Regiment (which traces its history back to the days of the Raj) is one of the most decorated regiments in the Indian Army, possibly the most. 14 out of the 40 Indian recipients of the VC came from the units that became the modern Indian Army's Sikh Regiment upon independence.

[ErikB]

Fearsome?  Somehow I think of the passionate Hindus as fearsome.  My Sikh neighbors just seem on the ball and squared away (i.e. reliable, aware, and not error-prone).

(Yes, stereotype, I know).

[Plynkes]

Yes, but I am talking about British views of their military qualities in the 19th and 20th Centuries, not what you think of your neighbours.  That's precisely why stereotypes will only take you so far, and can then dump you in it!

The British thought of the Hindu population as docile, passive and stoic (but still feared that Hindu men lusted after our white women), and viewed the Muslims and Sikhs as the ones brimming over with warlike fervour that could be tapped into for the Empire's interests. We live in different times. Post-independence, confident and aggressive Hindu nationalism is a much more visible force to us, so the stereotypes aren't all the same as they once were.

[ErikB]

Plynkes, that makes good sense.  Please, keep posting.  It's helping me get oriented on this topic.

Despite being a fellow former British colony (the US & India) and being chock full of Indians here in Silicon Valley, I don't know a lot about the real history.  In California's PC-culture it is hard to ask people about their previous homelands.  It was much easier in Europe. 

Different culture.  We're kinda PC-facists here, which is very unfortunate.

[HPFlashman]

Dont know about any martial races - but could there possibly be something along the lines of a Martial Culture ?

If I understand it correctly, the Sikhs has something of a ingrained martial arts system going along in their religion.
and this will probably make it easier to transform into a more "outgoing" military application, being subjected to training from an early age.

(And they have made a nice show of it at "India got talent"... )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8hVyPhFK30.

[Arthur]

Chiming in a bit late but in full agreement with Plynkes regarding the "martial races" nonsense. This was Victorian racial categorising at its most absurd, although the British were by no means the sole offenders in that respect : late 19th century Americans were bragging about the supremacy of the anglo-saxon "race" over all other cultural and religious groups, while the French were basking in the glory of the mission civilisatrice de la France. And I imagine other nations spouted more than their share of similarly dubious theories designed to prove their own superiority over everyone else

To put it simply, isn't the historically proven martial prowess of the Sikhs simply the result of them having to constantly fight for their kingdom for close to a century ? Non-stop warfare with your neighbours from 1748 till 1846 will produce a military culture in the long run and maintain a warlike spirit.

Also agree with the multi-ethnic nature of the Sikh state and the Sikh army until the British invasion of Punjab : we know that during the first and second Sikh wars of 1846 and 1848, the Khalsa counted many Muslims in its ranks, along with a fair proportion of Dogras and Hindustanis.  

And since I'm in the mood for being pedantic, I'd disagree with Jim over one of his earlier posts : i certainly wouldn't call the Arabs a "race", but would rather define them as a linguistic and cultural group, the use of the Arabic language being their main common denominator.    

[Christian]

That video was ... different.

At least to Australia's Got Talent... I don't think they'd allow that sort of thing on stage because someone might get hurt!

[Adam]

There was talk for a few years of creating a Sikh regiment in the modern British Army. Prince Charles was pushing for it at one point and they reckoned they'd be able to get the numbers required from within the Sikh community in Britain if they were given their own unit. The idea was ditched a couple of years ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555507/Sikh-regiment-dumped-over-racism-fears.html

I've learnt a lot in this thread. I didn't realise devout Sikhs aren't supposed to drink or eat meat. I've only known a couple mind, but both liked a pint.