Steampunk and Victorian Science Fiction - is there a difference?

[Parriah]

I now believe that this thread re-proves 5that any genre, case in point, is to the beholder what he perceives it to be and to another, it will not meet the first persons criteria. And, any given milieu, while in current vogue,  is a constantly evolving living thing, so, Papa Midnight had it right to start with, depends on who you ask!

Ne cest pas?

[DrVesuvius]

Agreed 100%.  It depends on who you ask, when you ask it and in some cases what context you ask it in.

Honestly, I've seen the same arguments over the years regarding Space opera vs Sci-Fi, Sword & Sorcery vs Fantasy,  Hard vs Soft Sci Fi... and so on ad nauseam. Most things in real life don't entirely fit into neat little categories.  Real life is a fuzzy amorphous glob of stuffness.

Dr V

[Alfrik]

Another differentiation of the two is that VSF mentions and uses formations of colonial troops overcoming masses of "native" forces while using good manners and stalwart courage.  Steampunk typically is a group of adventurers armed with their steampunk weaponry overcoming the arch villain type while traveling is strange contraptions and looking very stylish in their adornments.

[Varangian]

Another differentiation of the two is that VSF mentions and uses formations of colonial troops overcoming masses of "native" forces while using good manners and stalwart courage.  Steampunk typically is a group of adventurers armed with their steampunk weaponry overcoming the arch villain type while traveling is strange contraptions and looking very stylish in their adornments.

I think that might be one of the cleanest delineations I have personally seen.

[Melnibonean]

When it all comes down to it I don't really care for any distinction. I'm neither here no there on the whole issue. I just like the period and all the possibilities that go with it. But if (as some see it) VSF leans more toward a non-distopian future then I'm in that group.

I like to think of the whole genera as: "The past as it could have been if the future had arrived a before tea."

[DrVesuvius]

Another differentiation of the two is that VSF mentions and uses formations of colonial troops overcoming masses of "native" forces while using good manners and stalwart courage.  Steampunk typically is a group of adventurers armed with their steampunk weaponry overcoming the arch villain type while traveling is strange contraptions and looking very stylish in their adornments.

VSF doesn't necessarily include colonial troops vs natives.  It's just that most of the 19th century figures out there are historical colonial troops and many VSF gamers start by adding steampunk elements to forces they already have.

Personally I moved to VSF gaming to get away from colonial gaming, when I was feeling a little uncomfortable about it immediately after 911 and all my games since have been set in England.  GASLIGHT co-author Chris Palmer does the American Civil War by GASLIGHT.

But you may be onto something vis a vis the VSF stiff-upper-lip and the Steampunk peacocking.

Dr V

[tnjrp]

Only the first three Barsoom books, to be honest I found his writing not to my taste. But yes, Barsoom could be seen as VSF without Steampunk, though I personally feel Sword & Planet stories are more a part of fantasy than SF

A lot of the literature classified as "steampunk" is also de facto fantasy in that they only pay lip service to plausibility of the technology/science.

[Laflin and Rand]

A lot of the literature classified as "steampunk" is also de facto fantasy in that they only pay lip service to plausibility of the technology/science.

Or just have plain old magic.

[DrVesuvius]

By the bye, has anyone noticed the silence from the OP since asking the original contentious question?

May I say it's been nice having this discussion, with lots of differing opinions, yet still having things remain so friendly and civilised (compared to the same discussion elsewhere)  LAF is definitely becoming one of my favourite places to talk gaming on the internet.

Dr V

[tnjrp]

Or just have plain old magic

Indeedy. The term steampunk is also sometimes associated with sheer industrial fantasy settings like Bas-Lag of China Mieville or Iron Kingdoms of WARMACHINE. I'd tend imagine largely for marketing reasons.

[Haarken]

To start with let me just say that I am indebted to this wonderful article it's not the first time that I've read it and I would recommend it to anyone who wanted to explore the history of Steampunk, the blog where it is hosted also has a number of wonderful posts on the topic of defining Steampunk.

One of the primary distinctions that I would make between Steampunk & VSF is that Steampunk is unashamedly anachronistic, drawing design elements and ideas from a range of era's (historical and fantasy) and applying a veneer of Victoriana whilst Victorian Science Fiction essentially retains a historically accurate depiction of that period, whilst also allowing for a few what if's.

Perhaps the primary example of the difference between the anachronistic nature of Steampunk and the historical accuracy of VSF is in the aesthetic of each genre. An extreme example of the anachronistic steampunk aesthetic for instance being the gorgeous Dystopian Wars models, the whole range takes design elements from a large swathe of history, but perhaps one group of models that stands out are the Federated States of America naval models which combine paddle-wheel steamers and post-dreadnought battleship designs and add rivets for flavour. Now as much as I love the Dystopian Wars miniatures I think it's a real shame that they don't have a more historically accurate aesthetic, the pre-dreadnoughts of the era were beautiful vessels with real individual character and a unique design language that was fashioned by the technological limitations of the period, for my own purposes a VSF version of a pre-dreadnought battleship would retain that same design language, mixed armaments, low freeboards, large superstructures & tumblehome but would have an appropriate science fiction weapon, say for example a heat ray or an electric cannon or perhaps even better just have it be the real article and just fight what if scenario's.

As for the is Steampunk more dystopian than VSF argument I would say that it would be difficult to argue that, as mentioned previously H.G. Wells "The War in the Air" hardly presents a utopian future nor does "War of the Worlds" in fact I'm struggling to think of a single utopian world in VSF.

Just my two penneth anyways.

[Grimmnar]

Indeedy. The term steampunk is also sometimes associated with sheer industrial fantasy settings like Bas-Lag of China Mieville or Iron Kingdoms of WARMACHINE.

Man do they hate it when Steampunk is used to explain the Iron Kingdoms setting. Iron Kingdoms is Full Metal Fantasy. Just sayin. :-)

Grimm

[HerbyF]

Is it Strawberry-Vanilla swirl or Vanilla-Strawbery swirl?

[Parriah]

Is it Strawberry-Vanilla swirl or Vanilla-Strawbery swirl?

VERY well put!

BTW, all Zebras are white with Black Stripes.

[abdul666lw]

A lot of the literature classified as "steampunk" is also de facto fantasy in that they only pay lip service to plausibility of the technology/science.

Do you really think Jules Verne, his impressive academic-sounding computations notwithstanding, paid more than lip service to plausibility of the technology/science when he send men to the Moon in a huge howitzer shell? The same for Wells with his Martians emerging from crashed shells.
And, are bipedal warwalkers VSF or steampunk? Bipedal walk is an extremely complex process, a permanently controlled fall, requiring a myriad of sensors, numerous auxiliary engines to switch, rock and roll part of the weight (quicksilver in ballasts?) when the body stands on one leg only... To the point that even to-day we could not build a functional one. Besides, the concept is an insult to common sense: a contraption on only two legs is terribly vulnerable, to use it on a battlefield is plain silly, 3 pairs of legs is probably the minimum and four the optimum...

Indeed steampunk can be characterized as further away from 'historical reality' than VSF.  Visually -a Victoria's boy in red with pith helmet remains VSF even with a respirator, but turns steampunk if squeezed into steam-powered armor. But the main difference is *cultural*, at the level of the social status of women. In quasi-historical VSF women are submissive daughters and housewives almost without civic rights, concealing (most of) their hair when outdoors, most of their body under baggy clothes &c... as in to-day islamic countries. A few freaks may be doctors, nurses, teachers, writers of artists, nothing ever more 'active'. In most steampunk settings the activities and dresses of women show they are perfectly equal to men, and are for generations since it's a a deeply ingrained sociological feature.


 Foundry Victoriana can be used in VSF games, Ax faction "female Ned Land"  is steampunk.