Empire of the Dead "alternate activation" test report

[Anatoli]

One of the first things that I heard after having posted my review of the rules was that the IGOUGO could be a deal breaker for some gamers.

As such I promised to give the game a try using alternate activation where both players take turns activating one model at a time. I compiled my results from that one game and described where you would need to tweak the game to make it flow without breaking the core of the rules.

There are mainly 3 areas that need tinkering.

1) Balancing the turn sequence if players have different amount of miniatures. This can be done like in SoTR by simply delaying your activations on purpose and making the player with the numerical superiority move multiple times in a row.

2) Watch & Shoot needs reworking as it would break the game sequence and become too powerful. It can easily be tweaked to count as an activation - just like in SoTR, if you perform a "watch & shoot" action.

3) Assaults/close combat. This is perhaps the biggest game breaker if you apply alternate activations since the game is written in a way so that each player completes the full game sequence including all close combat before passing the turn over to the other player. This too can be fixed to some extent.

These 3 areas were addressed during our short testing game, we came up with some simple solutions on the go, I'm sure if you put a bit more thought into it you can come up with a modification to the core rules where you keep almost everything intact and only address these 3 areas which are the main concern. It is not impossible to tweak the game into working with alternate activation, but I can't honestly say that it added a LOT to the game experience as the game works just fine with the IGOUGO.

But for players who want alternate activation, there is hope :-)

Check my blog for further details on the possible tweaks and how they would work:
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2012/06/empire-of-dead-alternate-activation.html

[Conquistador]

One of the first things that I heard after having posted my review of the rules was that the IGOUGO could be a deal breaker for some gamers.

<snip>

Yes, with a "skirmish" game and often larger unit games too, it stops my money moving across the counter immediately.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Van-Helsing]

It depends on the way the other rules work and interact with the IGOUGO system surely!

"Suck it and See" as my Grandad always used to say!

[Skrapwelder]

I can live with IGOUGO. I'm not fond of it but I can see where it has its place. The thing I don't like in game like this is the "Locked in Combat" effect. For the convention game I did recently we used a card based initiative system and modified the turn sequence so that combat became part of the action phase.

Using this kind of system in a regular game players would get one card per Hero. The higher the card, the sooner the Hero acted in the sequence. Players would get to choose the order in which their Heroes activated. The lesser models are divided into small crews that follow each hero and act when he does. Combats are resolved as they happen in the action phase. A model would get a cumulative minus one for every combat after the first in each turn regardless of which card activation they happened on.

We're playing the rules as they lie currently. Too much tinkering on games in the recent past seems to have soured our group a bit. We spend more time trying to fix rules that just playing them.

[axabrax]

"We're playing the rules as they lie currently. Too much tinkering on games in the recent past seems to have soured our group a bit. We spend more time trying to fix rules that just playing them."

I agree wholeheartedly. You need to be able to meet other players and be on the same page, and to trust that the rules you are using, however much you might not like some aspects, have been play-tested and balanced organically with the entire system by the authors.  I think it's a small sacrifice to accept some perceived imperfections for these reasons.

Also, in my experience, people who buy rules and then immediately begin tinkering with the core mechs are often would-be game designers who think they "can do it better themselves" or who are attached to one particular mechanical concept. (Not saying this is the case about any of the posters here.)  

If you buy a set of rules and have to immediately overhaul them then perhaps the rules just aren't for you. Doesn't mean that EoTD isn't great in and of itself for the background and factions which could easily inspire any other skirmish system. I personally really like the game as-is.

[Conquistador]

Oh I will try them * but I refuse to buy rules with mechanics that I have had multiple bad experiences with until I play test them.  Usually some person locally will put on games with the rules eventually.

After several games I have to decide whether I will buy them, reject them outright for my own reasons, or  (as I did with TSATF) that I will play them with friends who own the rules.

Gracias,

Glenn

Life is too short to drink cheap wine, bad coffee, or play rules that "don't work" for me.

Even for free.



* Well, except for a certain company that shall remain unnamed.

[Thunderchicken]

The number of players involved in our campaign is now too large to be able to tweak the rules. Generally we're completely happy with the rules and any changes would be minor, even so it would be too messy and there's little chance of 100% agreement; the last thing we want to do is put people off.

The two main points are the initiative and the combat phase.

We ran a game on Thursday with a Lycaon faction facing up to a Gentlemen's Club. The Lycaon won the initiative for six straight turns and that was the main reason for their victory. It prompted calls to stop this from happening so rather than change the game mechanism we're looking at creating more arcane powers or influences which can go some way towards helping a faction gain the initiative once or twice in a game when really needed (a bit like Holmes' Elementary influence).

The combat phase being a separate part of the turn sequence rather than immediately following contact jars with some players but again its too minor for us to sit down and try and hammer out an agreed alternative. The only advantage we see in changing the combat rules is it will draw less characters into a combat situation. For instance as the rules stand at the moment if a werewolf player wants to charge a hero, to increase his chances of winning he may well choose to commit other figures to the combat there and then. This means a number of figures are now committed to combat which will be resolved later in the turn sequence. The way I see it if combat is resolved instantly then the werewolf player will charge the hero and if he loses the combat will only commit other figures then. If the werewolf wins the combat then the figure(s) which would have otherwise been committed under the current rules are free for alternative actions. Clear as mud?   How this change would affect the overall flow and result of the game we haven’t got around to considering yet but for now we’re sticking to the original rules.    

Mind you, its great to see some new ideas being put forward and some rather good ones too........    

[Van-Helsing]

Whilst the Combat Phase issue is a matter of taste (I think it's fine where it is personally) - your thoughts about the Initiative thing puzzles me.

Winning the Initiative Phase with that frequency was just dumb luck - he could have easily won every combat surely.

Upon saying that I am HORRENDOUSLY unlucky with Dice myself, so I empathise.

[Conquistador]

It depends on the way the other rules work and interact with the IGOUGO system surely!

<snip>

Actually, no.  Playing with other's rules may convince me to play the game but it would have to be a powerfully wonderful game for me to buy them with IGOUGO skirmish games.  Has not happened since the 1980s for me IIRC.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Thunderchicken]

Upon saying that I am HORRENDOUSLY unlucky with Dice myself, so I empathise.

I'm with you there, the amount of times I have rolled successful wounds to see them converted to flesh wounds is an outstanding achievement for all the wrong reasons.

You're right, 6 straight rolls for initiative was bad luck for the Gentleman's Club player and he didnt have a good game. Basicaly the werewolves ran rings around the club and picked the terms of combat to their advantage along with the juicy modifiers. If the club had gained the initiative on even a third of the rolls they could have put their weapons to better use. As I said we wont be changing the mechanics of the rules rather we'll look at how to manipulate the initiative phase with what's to hand.

[Van-Helsing]

The "Roll Every Turn" is the fairest (excepting bad luck of course) - I've seen similar happen with Card based initiatives too!

[Skrapwelder]

I like the idea of adding Occurrences or Arcane Powers to modify the Initiative. My first thought is an occurrence that puts all your shooters into "Wait and Shoot" mode during the Maintenance Phase.