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Author Topic: Elvish United Nations  (Read 6078 times)

Offline Red Orc

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Elvish United Nations
« on: June 28, 2012, 03:09:24 PM »
Ok, bear with me. This may turn out to be me having a mental breakdown, but...

... I'm perusing the WotC website looking at images to make standees from (see thread here (link) for some pics) and I come across the following picture (which is of Forgotten Realms Elves, (c) WotC, illustration by Steve Prescott):



... which shows a Drow, Wild Elf, Sun Elf, Wood Elf and Moon Elf.

I know different D&D settings also have other Elven races - Shadow Elves in Mystara, for instance.

These got me thinking. How many sorts of Elves are there, in different settings (and worlds)?

I've got myself a new, long-term project. I'm going to try to put together a unit, that I can use for WHFB, that includes representatives from as many different races of Elves as I can be bothered to do - Warhammer Dark Elves (at least, pale and blue Dark Elves, as in Talisman), World of Warcraft Night Elves and Blood Elves, Drow, Wild Elves, Sun Elves, Shadow Elves and all the rest.

I am limiting this to Elves that:
1 - don't have wings;
2 - are about human-sized;
3 - aren't aquatic.

In other words those 'Tolkienish' Elves, whether good or bad, that inhabit most fantasy-worlds.

So, I'm looking for suitable minis, and suggestions for different 'races' of Elves that could be part of this United Nations of Elves Interdimensional Peace Keeping force. Any suggestions for either minis or suitable paint schemes gratefully accepted.

More details on my Fantasy Adventuring blog here (link).

EDIT: to sort the links out.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 12:12:09 AM by Red Orc »

Offline Dr.Falkenhayn

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 03:44:59 PM »
i like these:





Sorry, not much Infos about them.All i know is theyre older Miniatures (Harlequin perhaps),Manic Miner/4A Miniatures carrys them at Shows

Offline Red Orc

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 03:54:39 PM »
They're really cool! They look more D&D-ish than Warhammerish and that's probably a good thing.

I'll send Manic Miner a message about them, thanks.

Offline Colonel Tubby

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 05:58:52 PM »
2018 Lead Tally: Purchased=55   Painted=2     Balance=-53
2017 Lead Tally: Purchased=45   Painted=80   Balance=+35
2016 Lead Tally: Purchased=196 Painted=173  Balance=-23

Offline Heldrak

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 06:11:30 PM »
While it's an interesting idea, let's not confuse a literary tradition with a painting tradition. Let's also not be literal-minded and canonical about color-schemes for lines of figures when the companies that produce aren't themselves.

Speaking as one who took pains to track the evolution of the Elven concept in the Citadel Miniatures/GW/Warhammer tradition, there was no real consistency about how Elves are/were represented. Take a look at my Dark Elf Collector's Guide on the CCM (Collecting Citadel Miniatures) Wiki:

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Dark_Elf_-_Collectors_Guide

In the Citadel tradition, Dark Elves are interchangeable with Night Elves to start with. Citadel Dark Elf history begins with the preslotta Night Elf Patrol (for which there are no Citadel Graphics showing painted models). The Night Elf Patrol figures are tiny and wizened, like the Svartalves from Norse Mythology.

With the publication of the first edition of Warhammer fantasy battle, Elves become more codified and they break into Dark Elves and non-Dark Elves (High Elves and Wood Elves are considered interchangeable at this point and there are no Sea Elves). This period is represented by the C08 High Elf and C09 Dark Elf lines. The C09 Dark Elf line bears some resemblance to the Night Elf Patrol (particularly in terms of their costumes), but they resemble their High Elf Cousins more in terms of stature. The C08 High Elf line is obviously intended for use with roleplaying games, as the figures have character classes noted on the sides of their solid bases. Once again, there are no Citadel Graphics showing painted models of either type.

The next iteration of Citadel Elves comes with the release of 3rd edition Warhammer and the original Warhammer Armies and Ravening Hordes books. Elves split into High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Sea Elves, although High Elves Wood Elves and Sea Elves are still used interchangeably. In Warhammer terms, "Sea Elves" are those High Elves that inhabit the outer coastal ring of Ulthuan. They are reputed to be hardier and less decadent than the High Elves that inhabit Ulthuan's inner ring.

While all types of Elves are described the same way, as having beautiful pale faces, painted examples in published citadel material usually shown them painted in standard caucasian colors. There are some exceptions showing Dark Elves painted with bright blue skin, but this is not done consistently, rather in isolated cases as with the Talisman Dark Elf and the slottabased C09 Command Group figures. It is also worth noting that the 3rd edition Talisman Dark Elf character card shows a Marauder MM70 figures painted in standard caucasian colors, likewise the Witch Elf and Dark Elf Sorceress models for the Talisman expansion sets.

The Marauder MM-series of figures you reference comes later than the slottabased C09 series, but it still adheres to the rules of 3rd edition Warhammer. The photo of the MM70 line is the only one showing Dark Elves with greenish/blueish/minty/undead skin tones. This may be meant to reflect the ability for Dark Elf units to take mutations under the rules of the original Realm of Chaos books (Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned). All the other Marauder MM-series Dark Elves are shown with standard caucasian skin tones.

With the publication of 4th edition Warhammer (and the army book formats we know today), Sea Elves disappear and all Elves of every stripe (High/Dark/Wood) are shown with standard caucasian flesh tones and that has been the canonical GW color scheme for Elves ever since. With the publication of the Storm of Chaos material for 6th edition Warhammer, some Druchii Anointed are referred to in print as having black or blueish skin, but these are supposedly rare mutated individuals.

When looking at GW Elf types, it might also be worth looking at the original Citadel LOTR Elf line (many of them rolled into the High Elf and Wood Elf lines when GW lost the LOTR licence) and the Citadel Eternal Champion Melnibonean line (many of them rolled into the High Elf line when GW lost the STORMBRINGER! license). All of these are painted in standard caucasian colors (apart from the albino Elric, of course!).

2012 Lead Tally: Painted:0

Offline area23

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 06:54:36 PM »
There was this amazing White Dwarf cover with Dark Elves, signed by 'Fangorn'. All mixed skin colours too. The painting was based on Marauder D.E.s, but the mini's themselves didn't look nearly as good. In fact, apart from some by the Perry's most GW dark elves looked crap until the recent intervention by Jes Goodwin himself.

I consider the Citadel Melniboneans, Wardancers, Skarlock(?) and some High Elves the only elves worth considering. Those and the Grenadier dark-, high-, and woodelves,which are very nice too.

Any other elves that I'm aware of, with very few exeptions, always have something that looks wrong or implausible to me. I blame D&D and Elf Quest.  lol lol

Offline Viper

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 07:26:16 PM »
The Red Box Aelfar have some pretty nice figures.

http://red-box-games.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15
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Offline Red Orc

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 08:21:20 PM »
While it's an interesting idea, let's not confuse a literary tradition with a painting tradition. Let's also not be literal-minded and canonical about color-schemes for lines of figures when the companies that produce aren't themselves...

Well, I'm a huge Tolkien fanboy and am therefore fairly clued up on where D&D, GW etc ultimately derived most of their Elves (ie, both from reinterpretations of Tolkien and in their own reinterpretations of the Norse legends, and indeed in GW's case the re-interpretation of TSR's re-interpretation, and in Warcraft's case a re-interpretation of GW's re-interpretation of TSR's re-interpretation).

Speaking as one who took pains to track the evolution of the Elven concept in the Citadel Miniatures/GW/Warhammer tradition, there was no real consistency about how Elves are/were represented. Take a look at my Dark Elf Collector's Guide on the CCM (Collecting Citadel Miniatures) Wiki:

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Dark_Elf_-_Collectors_Guide

Aaargh! There are so many of the 1st/2nd Ed figures (and a few of the 3rd Ed) that I got rid of back in ... about '88. Only one of them I still have - C-0913 Female Fanatic w. Sword & Buckler (from the 2nd Citadel Compendium, she's listed as one of the 'Witch Elves', and to this day she serves as Eilea, my first D&D character).

Great resource there Heldrak. A great reminder of many minis I used to have that are no longer with me.

As an aside, are you sure there weren't 9 troopers and a command figure in the Mengil Manhide box? It's a long time since I got rid of mine but if you were to ask me I'd swear there were 10 figs all together.

...In the Citadel tradition, Dark Elves are interchangeable with Night Elves to start with. Citadel Dark Elf history begins with the preslotta Night Elf Patrol (for which there are no Citadel Graphics showing painted models). The Night Elf Patrol figures are tiny and wizened, like the Svartalves from Norse Mythology.

With the publication of the first edition of Warhammer fantasy battle, Elves become more codified and they break into Dark Elves and non-Dark Elves (High Elves and Wood Elves are considered interchangeable at this point and there are no Sea Elves). This period is represented by the C08 High Elf and C09 Dark Elf lines. The C09 Dark Elf line bears some resemblance to the Night Elf Patrol (particularly in terms of their costumes), but they resemble their High Elf Cousins more in terms of stature. The C08 High Elf line is obviously intended for use with roleplaying games, as the figures have character classes noted on the sides of their solid bases. Once again, there are no Citadel Graphics showing painted models of either type.

The next iteration of Citadel Elves comes with the release of 3rd edition Warhammer and the original Warhammer Armies and Ravening Hordes books. Elves split into High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Sea Elves, although High Elves Wood Elves and Sea Elves are still used interchangeably. In Warhammer terms, "Sea Elves" are those High Elves that inhabit the outer coastal ring of Ulthuan. They are reputed to be hardier and less decadent than the High Elves that inhabit Ulthuan's inner ring.

While all types of Elves are described the same way, as having beautiful pale faces, painted examples in published citadel material usually shown them painted in standard caucasian colors. There are some exceptions showing Dark Elves painted with bright blue skin, but this is not done consistently, rather in isolated cases as with the Talisman Dark Elf and the slottabased C09 Command Group figures...

I knew there was another example of blue Dark Elves, I just couldn't track it down. Round about 1990, presumably?

... It is also worth noting that the 3rd edition Talisman Dark Elf character card shows a Marauder MM70 figures painted in standard caucasian colors, likewise the Witch Elf and Dark Elf Sorceress models for the Talisman expansion sets.

The Marauder MM-series of figures you reference comes later than the slottabased C09 series, but it still adheres to the rules of 3rd edition Warhammer. The photo of the MM70 line is the only one showing Dark Elves with greenish/blueish/minty/undead skin tones. This may be meant to reflect the ability for Dark Elf units to take mutations under the rules of the original Realm of Chaos books (Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned). All the other Marauder MM-series Dark Elves are shown with standard caucasian skin tones...

Didn't know about that, I never made the transition to 3rd Ed WHFB. That might make it a bit easier if I don't have to paint every 8th Elf as a zombie.

...With the publication of 4th edition Warhammer (and the army book formats we know today), Sea Elves disappear and all Elves of every stripe (High/Dark/Wood) are shown with standard caucasian flesh tones and that has been the canonical GW color scheme for Elves ever since. With the publication of the Storm of Chaos material for 6th edition Warhammer, some Druchii Anointed are referred to in print as having black or blueish skin, but these are supposedly rare mutated individuals...

I tend to have an approach that says 'what used to be real is also real'; if there were official GW shots of blue Dark Elves (and we know there were for the Talisman Dungeon Dark Elf, at least in the early edition(s), and for the Marauder Dark Elf Command that you referenced before), then there are (somewhere in Warhammer World) some blue Dark Elves; therefore there will be blue Dark Elves in this project. The retconned 6th Ed 'mutations' justification is fine.

...When looking at GW Elf types, it might also be worth looking at the original Citadel LOTR Elf line (many of them rolled into the High Elf and Wood Elf lines when GW lost the LOTR licence) ...

One of the members of this platoon may be the original Legolas. In fact, 2 of the members if I do cavalry as well because I have the cavalry Legolas too.

...and the Citadel Eternal Champion Melnibonean line (many of them rolled into the High Elf line when GW lost the STORMBRINGER! license). All of these are painted in standard caucasian colors (apart from the albino Elric, of course!).

Interesting idea. These do go for silly money however. In general, I'd rather go for some range with both male and female figures, in relatively sensible armour (no modern Witch Elf dominatrix gear for instance). Beyond that I'm pretty flexible as to weapons and whatnot.

Area23: I'll try to find that artwork, sounds like it could be useful as inspiration, ta.

Viper: they are very nice minis, but at $9 a pop they're a bit rich for me. I don't fancy dropping the best part of $200 for one unit. Think I might have to go for something a bit cheaper!

Offline area23

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 10:04:17 PM »
Found it! http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:DE32.jpg

In my memory the had more variation in skin colour! It's been a while...

Amazing page here, with 3d ed Paul Bonner line drawings!  :-*
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Dark_Elf_%28Concept_Art%29_-_Collectors_Guide

Offline Heldrak

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 02:36:30 AM »
If you need more contextual support, I believe that some of the early Blood Bowl Dark Elves were shown with blue skin in published GW material as well.

My point was, you could take a pack of elves and paint them practically every color of the rainbow and you would probably be able to find a pictorial reference somewhere to support the choice. Just as an example, painted representations of Drow flesh range from flat black to grey, blueish, purpleish, and brownish.

Another line you might want to look at would be the Privateer Press Nyss/Blighted Nyss (the Elves/Dark Elves of the Hordes/Warmachine universe). The Nyss are painted in standard caucasian flesh tones and the blighted Nyss are a cold blue-white, highlighted up from purple.

Offline Heldrak

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 02:42:28 AM »
As an aside, are you sure there weren't 9 troopers and a command figure in the Mengil Manhide box? It's a long time since I got rid of mine but if you were to ask me I'd swear there were 10 figs all together.

I acquired mine after-market so I can't speak to the original packaging with complete exactitude. SOL claims 8 + a Command model for the preslotta range:

http://solegends.com/citrr/index.htm
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 06:20:52 PM by Heldrak »

Offline B. Basiliscus

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 02:50:38 AM »
I'd suggest degenerate sub-races of elf, like the Falmer from Elder Scrolls, but you probably don't want those included at all.
Or the Orsimer for that matter. The other elves wouldn't let them join their club because they're prissy and boring. >:T

Would this extend outside of wargaming and into videogames and movies?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 02:55:01 AM by B. Basiliscus »

Offline Heldrak

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 03:00:40 AM »
I knew there was another example of blue Dark Elves, I just couldn't track it down. Round about 1990, presumably?

Didn't know about that, I never made the transition to 3rd Ed WHFB. That might make it a bit easier if I don't have to paint every 8th Elf as a zombie.

I tend to have an approach that says 'what used to be real is also real'; if there were official GW shots of blue Dark Elves (and we know there were for the Talisman Dungeon Dark Elf, at least in the early edition(s), and for the Marauder Dark Elf Command that you referenced before), then there are (somewhere in Warhammer World) some blue Dark Elves; therefore there will be blue Dark Elves in this project. The retconned 6th Ed 'mutations' justification is fine.

Blue Dark Elf Command Group from White Dwarf #94 (page 42), 1987:



Note that these are C09 figures sculpted by Bob Naismith, not Marauder MM-series figures sculpted by Aly and Trish Morrison. The scan I took has washed them out somewhat, they are a brighter blue in the original White Dwarf ad.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 03:02:18 AM by Heldrak »

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 03:20:49 AM »
Elven varieties are noticably more well-known (I was going to say prevalent but as Dwarf Fanboy I am no expert on elfdom) than for dwarf kin is my impression.  In fantasy I have seen elves mentioned ranging in height from over 7 feet to around 5 feet tall, athletically slender to skeletal, and dark to pale flesh tones.  You should be able to justify most anything in appearance.

Tolkien/LOTR/The Hobbit/Silmarillion and, secondatily, D&D/FRPGs in general shaped my views on Elves and I hold that to be a good thing.  Not the only influence but the prime ones.

Gracias,

Glenn


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Offline Red Orc

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Re: Elvish United Nations
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 11:42:19 AM »
Area23, Heldrak; thanks for posting those. All illustrations of Elves gratefully received! I'm surprised I couldn't find a picture of those DE command figures, I have a WD94 kicking around somewhere, I thought though that they were probably later (hence assuming that they were from the Marauder range - I assumed about WD125 which I think was more like '89-'90). I agree that the representations of Drow and Dark Elves particularly are not consistent; and that the 'blue' Dark Elves are almost certainly a reference to the Drow before the total divorce of the TSR and WH ranges/universes (I'm sure there's an early reference to WH Dark Elves wearing 'Drow helms' too). But these confusions in part reinforce my idea that there is one ur-culture of Elves, and the Drow, Shadow Elves, Asrai, Druchii, Noldor, Blood Elves and all the rest are the result of the long sundering of the Elves and their journeyings through time and space and aetheriality to populate many worlds. And if they go, they can come back or journey on to places where their distant kin already arrived 20,000 years ago (or whatever)

B. Basiliscus; I'm not aware of the Falmer and Orsimer (never played Elder Scrolls) - but definitely this extends outside of representation of Elves in RPGs and tabletop battlegames. Into literature for a start, there will be Elves of a Middle-Earth-y bent (I'm one of those strange people who considers that 'The Lord of the Rings' is a book, which I realise makes me an oddity in the modern world), but also video games. I'm going to reference Warcraft at least (as I know something about it) and perhaps even Zelda if I can (though they'll be taller than the elf/pixie types from Ocarina of Time). But like the tabletop gaming pictures, all representations gratefully accepted. I've been checking the Elder Scrolls wiki and I'm sure some representatives of the 'Mer' can find their way into this force too. Maybe not the blind degenerate Falmer slaves though.


I acquired mine after-market so I can speak to the original packaging with complete exactitude. SOL claims 8 + a Command model for the preslotta range:

http://solegends.com/citrr/index.htm

And yet the illustration they have on the page claims '10 models' - ie 9 troopers plus command. I think in this case the GW promotional material is more accurate than the remembrances of someone on SOL 20 years later.

But only because the GW promotional material agrees with my recollection 25 years later. I'm absolutely certain that of the original RoR that I got in 1986 (or whenever it was), Mengil, Oreon, Bugman and Grom came in 10 model packs, and only Harboth came in a 9 model pack. I think Karnak's Lizard Raiders came in a 9-pack too, but I didn't have them.

Conquistador; like you I started with the 'original fantasy' sources - Tolkien, and his immediate imitators (eg Guy Gavriel Kay); so these Elves will all be human-height (as much as there is a 'human height') and not winged. The original Elven homeworld is likely to have been Arda, I suppose, and all of the various clans and factions on other worlds descended ultimately from the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 12:15:31 PM by Red Orc »

 

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