Ambush skill and CON 8+... game breaking, can this be fixed?

[Bergh]

1.) The whole idea that Ambush breaks the game is absurd. Let's just quash that right there.

2.) So, you'd have to roll three consecutive sixes using dynamite in order to put a single wound on a Lurker with a CON of 10 and Tough due to the fact you'd need to roll 3 points over 10 to get one wound on him.

3.) The very simple fix is the one that I use at home: Only human and humanoid lurkers can be given skills.

1: Alright you don't see the finer points, thats OK. I have nothing against Alert action, and i know they exist in other games, but with the Ambush skill you get your normal turn and THEN the extra action or ability, used in conjunction with each other, it don't work perfectly.
But let it rest, I just think you should try too play with an "all ambush+dex"-team and see what's happens, if you play it smart.
All agents start with .45 pistol, quite usefull for alert shooting, even when they normally use a rifle.

2. I don't understand. Tough only give you -2 on the INJURY TABLE (page 19), and do not have anything to do with CON and the damage roll.
You just have to contest a models CON then you roll on the injury table, normaly it take a 7+ on 2D6 to get a model of the table, with Tough you just have -2 on that roll, and if you beat the models CON on the damage roll you get additional positive modifiers on the injury table.
So what you are saying are wrong, you DON'T need to roll 13 on a damage roll to take a wound away from the model with CON10+Tough, "just" a 10.

3. That sounds like a boring solution to me, maybe a better one would just say that CON upgrades are forbidden, actually that would solve a lot of the balancing issues, but 100% agree that if you don't play "nice & casual" things can quickly get over the top.

[superflytnt]

You're not seeing the forest for the trees here, bro. In many other games ALL FIGURES HAVE AMBUSH. If you use Space Hulk as an example, each figure can take a shot down their LOS if an enemy takes an action in their LOS. So, it's the same thing, except that they have unlimited range and their shots are instant-kill on 6. Same with Tannhauser, except it's closer to SA because it's a challenged roll.

It's simply that you don't appear to have played games like this, so you don't know how to counter it. That's the only thing I can envision that would make you cry foul about such a pedestrian skill that isn't uncommon in tabletop games.

Anyhow, you're right about the CON situation. I misread Tough. So, it's actually easier to kill a monster with a base CON 8 than I had illustrated.

So, there's no real problems here. It's just a game about otherworldly monsters coming out to play. They should be tough...they're otherworldly monsters!

[Bergh]

You're not seeing the forest for the trees here, bro. In many other games ALL FIGURES HAVE AMBUSH. If you use Space Hulk as an example, each figure can take a shot down their LOS if an enemy takes an action in their LOS. So, it's the same thing, except that they have unlimited range and their shots are instant-kill on 6. Same with Tannhauser, except it's closer to SA because it's a challenged roll.

It's simply that you don't appear to have played games like this, so you don't know how to counter it. That's the only thing I can envision that would make you cry foul about such a pedestrian skill that isn't uncommon in tabletop games.

Anyhow, you're right about the CON situation. I misread Tough. So, it's actually easier to kill a monster with a base CON 8 than I had illustrated.

So, there's no real problems here. It's just a game about otherworldly monsters coming out to play. They should be tough...they're otherworldly monsters!

Let me try too tell it in another way. If all models in the game had "Ambush" as a generic part of the game, it would be equal. problem is when one side have it and the other don't. But let's put it too rest, if the way you play works perfectly for you, its great. My impression is that there are a few rules and details in the Strange Aeons rules you have missed.

PS: In Space Hulk (atleast 1st edition), overwatch fire is only 12 squares, while normal fire is unlimited range. I also have a experience in a good variety of games, even old ones.

[Mason]

Maybe you should just sit down with your group and find an amicable solution to the 'problem'.

I dont believe there is any system out there that cant be improved to suit your own group's particular style with a few house rules.

We mess around with every system to try and avoid just this sort of thing.
 

[superflytnt]

My impression is that there are a few rules and details in the Strange Aeons rules you have missed.

Uh, no. At least not regarding the core combat rules. This is actually one of the more simple games I've played from a combat perspective. And FWIW, 12 squares range in Space Hulk is pretty much unlimited. It's very rare to have a straight corridor that long.

Good luck, man. Maybe start playing Space Hulk instead.

[Bergh]

Uh, no. At least not regarding the core combat rules. This is actually one of the more simple games I've played from a combat perspective. And FWIW, 12 squares range in Space Hulk is pretty much unlimited. It's very rare to have a straight corridor that long.

Good luck, man. Maybe start playing Space Hulk instead.

Allmost all the starter missions in the basis Space hulk box have 12+ square corridors. rare?
There are several point in this tread showing that you have not the full grasp of the combat rules.
But lets stop it here, i give the victory or what you would call it to you. Congrats! just give me peace.

[superflytnt]

Because I didn't know Tough (which I've never used, since I prefer human, drugged Cultists) I don't get the combat rules? Do me a favor and go check my quick reference for errors, seriously, because if I've made errors I'd love to fix them.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=45929.0

And I don't play starter missions of Space Hulk, bro, not for maybe 10 years or so. There's a reason they're starter missions. But I guess if you're counting doors that are all open, sure, there's plenty of 12 space corridors.

[Bergh]

No Worries, its a fine Quick reference sheet.

We can keeping flaming all night if we want too, lets just stop it

[superflytnt]

No Worries, its a fine Quick reference sheet.

We can keeping flaming all night if we want too, lets just stop it

You seem to think I'm mad or something. Totally not. I'm not flaming at all, bro. I'm just completely disagreeing with you on Ambush, and almost completely agreeing that CON 8 or 9 is almost impossible to beat.

[obsidian3d]

Something to keep in mind as well is that there are maximums for attributes defined in the skills section. The game is intended to be fun, but there's nothing to stop people from min/max-ing and doing exactly as you're suggesting. I do find it to be a little unsportsmanlike to do so however...

Con 8 and above can be tough to hit, but it's not impossible.

Ambush is powerful, but as mentioned it can only be used once per turn, and must be used at the beginning or end of an action, not during. Since it's only a single shot (and being able to take that shot also means being able to BE shot at) it all comes down to the dice at that point. Dice being what they are...sometimes luck is with you.

I'd recommend (as some others have) in alternating playing lurker and threshold in your games. If I know that you've got characters that are always alert and can shoot my characters I might start taking ghosts and poltergeists against you. If you've always got figures with CON 8 then I'll start taking AP weapons with DEX improvements. If both players are getting their Threshold lists decimated every time they play because of min-maxing then house rule it to keep it fun.

[superflytnt]

I agree; we alternate quite a bit so that my wife's list takes as many bruises as my list...in fact, we've instituted a policy where no model can be used on the same list more than once...and I just placed an order for some Copplestone figures....

That said, I enjoy playing the Lurkers more because they have more variety in what you can field. Plus, they're evil!

[DoctorDuckButter]

Since Ambush is being brought up, I wanted to ask if this was rules legal.

Since I just learned that Ambush can only be used at the start or end of an action, might effect my strategy.

My example: A serpentman is charging through a cornfield at my priest with a double barrel shotgun. The Serpentman gets into Hand to Hand with his movement and I then use my Ambush to shoot him. I hit and do no damage, but he should be knocked back 1-3 inches, thus I am no longer in Hand to Hand? Is that legal?

[styx]

Since Ambush is being brought up, I wanted to ask if this was rules legal.

Since I just learned that Ambush can only be used at the start or end of an action, might effect my strategy.

My example: A serpentman is charging through a cornfield at my priest with a double barrel shotgun. The Serpentman gets into Hand to Hand with his movement and I then use my Ambush to shoot him. I hit and do no damage, but he should be knocked back 1-3 inches, thus I am no longer in Hand to Hand? Is that legal?

We did that slightly wrong, as I had finished BTB when you noticed you had Ambush. So, you would have shot before I got to BTB, the knockback would have been factored in, then I would continue movement with my remaining movement if possible...the shot goes off once I hit the 10" range.

So it would have been: move lurker, once within 10", you shot, then resolve results (including knockback),then I continue on with my actions including the interrupted one...

[DoctorDuckButter]

We did that slightly wrong, as I had finished BTB when you noticed you had Ambush. So, you would have shot before I got to BTB, the knockback would have been factored in, then I would continue movement with my remaining movement if possible...the shot goes off once I hit the 10" range.

So it would have been: move lurker, once within 10", you shot, then resolve results (including knockback),then I continue on with my actions including the interrupted one...

Well, the preacher missed anyways, then cried like a baby as he was ripped to shreds.  

[styx]

Well, the preacher missed anyways, this cried like a baby and was ripped to shreds. 

True, I thought he had a wound on him at that time...so the shotgun would have ruined his day...