Perry normans for norman invasors in Ireland?

[vonplutz]

I would beg to disagree with much of the advice given to date and suggest that the Perry's First Crusade range is a good starting point. Indeed I used them as a basis of my Third Crusade force, which you can find on my blog (below).

Some helmet conversions help (flat tops aren't too hard to do), as do underskirts and surcoats for the nobles. I don't believe full helms and caparisons were that common until c.1200. So maybe just the odd magnate is sufficient.

If you are up to speed with green stuff or have a buddy who is and willing to help then it wont be an issue  

Edit, yes shirts of mail developed to cover the lower arms during the 12th century and mittens were added in many cases, as were chausses, but the invasion of Ireland was not initially conducted by the well-equipped troops of the royal household or those of major magnates. So less well-equipped heavy horse supported by fairly ragged Welsh foot would be a reasonable depiction of the 'invaders'.

Mittens and full helmets in my research don't appear until the close of the century and the full helmet only amongst the great magnates. I would argue though that full sleeves become fairly common quickly but as you said the early invaders of Ireland weren't of the top of the barrel.

[janner]

Hi vonP. My first source for a great helm is Richard I's second great seal (1198). So logically examples were probably around slightly before that. By the way, whats your source on dating mittens?

In my forthcoming article on Bishop Philip of Dreux in the next edition of Medieval Warfare, I felt comfortable advising the illustrator to have a rich magnate like bishop of Beauvais in faceplate and a lightweight caparison at Arsuf. However, the majority of the Crusaders aren't depicted as greatly different from the figures produced by Conquest and the Twins - longer sleeves on the coats of mail and smaller shields notwithstanding.

I think that sukhe_bator hit it bang on the head earlier on the nature of the Cambro-Norman forces in Ireland. Of course equipment would have improved once Henry II and John got involved, but this is still before the major step change in knightly protection that seems to have come, as von.P writes, around 1200. So by the time of the battles of Lewes and Evesham it was a totally different ball game  

[Funghy-Fipps]

Black tree have a small range...

I would also recommend BTD, as their medieval stuff blends well with Perry's Crusade range. However, I would instead direct you to their '2nd crusade' range which is fairly contemporary with the period you're looking at. I sold all mine on ebay recently, but they're actually very nice models:

http://www.blacktreedesign.com/uk/home.php?cat=2480

[vonplutz]

Hi vonP. My first source for a great helm is Richard I's second great seal (1198). So logically examples were probably around slightly before that. By the way, whats your source on dating mittens?

In my forthcoming article on Bishop Philip of Dreux in the next edition of Medieval Warfare, I felt comfortable advising the illustrator to have a rich magnate like bishop of Beauvais in faceplate and a lightweight caparison at Arsuf. However, the majority of the Crusaders aren't depicted as greatly different from the figures produced by Conquest and the Twins - longer sleeves on the coats of mail and smaller shields notwithstanding.

I think that sukhe_bator hit it bang on the head earlier on the nature of the Cambro-Norman forces in Ireland. Of course equipment would have improved once Henry II and John got involved, but this is still before the major step change in knightly protection that seems to have come, as von.P writes, around 1200. So by the time of the battles of Lewes and Evesham it was a totally different ball game  

The Richard I seal is also where I was going with the faceplates. I figure at best 5-10 years prior you get the early development of the full face as in the 1170s one can see the beginning of the nasal spreading outward, a good example is found in the Rolandslied des Pfaffen Konrad, I would in no way consider this a full face guard but it is a developmental step.

As for the mittens my research comes from an art history perspective. in most of the MS I have looked at I don't see mail mittens until the 1180s and same with surviving effigies (as few as they are from the 12th century). Further in MS illustration it is a bit of a flip flopping trend where many MS late leave them out. I do bow down to your greater study of martial material culture though, I only dabble.

I'm right there with you supporting sukhe_bator, the Perry figures with minor conversions (though for me they'd be quite difficult) will work for early Normans in Ireland.

[janner]

Thanks matey - that's why I love medieval history so much.

There's enough to get your teeth into, but not so much that there is no room for conjecture

[vonplutz]

Thanks matey - that's why I love medieval history so much.

There's enough to get your teeth into, but not so much that there is no room for conjecture

Indeed. Sadly I'm burning out and everyday is a struggle to finish thelast little bit of the degree. Need a break to romp around Italy and decide what direction I want to go.

[janner]

PM en route