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Author Topic: I am looking for Korean War in 28  (Read 18267 times)

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2018, 08:00:13 AM »
Yeah, but that just means the NK/Chinese players will just have to play smart. I could see them play alot like the Japanese, but with out the whole bonzi thing.
And lots of night attacks to help reduce UN troops fire power advantage.
Of course a few Chinese tanks did show up at the end of the war. Just not that often.
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Offline Arlequín

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2018, 08:46:00 AM »
Ah, but in your experience of Bolt Action, how many players are likely to adopt that attitude? In the popularity scale, where do the Japanese fit?

I anticipate 'no tanks - no go' might dominate, unless un-historical is the route travelled.
The science of war at the beginning of a war is a strict science like astronomy, but that at the end of the war it is more like astrology. - Rebecca West

Offline carlos marighela

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2018, 11:29:33 AM »
I suspect the main appeal will be folk wanting to play Rorke’s drift with machineguns and obliging ‘commies’ presenting themselves to be mown down as proxy Zulus in human waves. Warlord should cater well for such a market.
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Offline commissarmoody

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2018, 12:30:28 PM »
All depends. We have a dozen Japanese players in are area, and the 4 that took part in are 1945 Manchuria campaign halted the great sovit push. Thus makeing the war last into 1946 with the allies haveing to invade Japan.   :`

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2018, 12:44:45 PM »
That being said, none of the German players wanted to jump in. Not enough wonder weapons and SS to in camo to excite them.  lol
And nothing wrong with recreating Rofkes Drift with commies as the baddies.  lol

Offline Arlequín

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2018, 05:24:32 PM »
All that despite the Korean War offering plenty of kosha infantry platoon on infantry platoon actions.  ::)

A true Rourke's Drift scenario would be more like Task Force Smith's holding action right at the start of the war. Although facing T34/85 companies with old M9 Bazookas, RCLs with no ammo and the 6 AP Shells of each 105mm howitzer, might be more like Isandlwana.

 lol

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #111 on: August 11, 2018, 01:14:44 AM »
Pretty much, all that time being far a happy. Partying in Japan with no field training, matanence and low ammunition really kicked the army of Japanese occupation in the butt when they had to go to Korea.  lol

Offline Ultravanillasmurf

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #112 on: August 11, 2018, 08:27:24 AM »
I will admit to it being a period I know even less about, but the Squadron/Signal publication "Armor[sic] In Korea" seems to provide a short overview (YMMV). Sometimes the UN/US/ROK forces are the ones seeing off lots of tanks with just bad language.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #113 on: August 11, 2018, 10:08:43 AM »
In the first few months it certainly was the case, but the NK armoured corps was eventually wiped out by air attack, or abandoned after mechanical failure or lack of fuel (and then attacked from the air anyway) during the retreat after the Pusan Breakout and Inchon Landings.

Certainly after November 1950 there appear to be no encounters with either T-34 or SU-76; a few panic attacks when abandoned/destroyed vehicles 'appeared' excepted. The IS-IIs they possessed were kept out of the fight and were eventually kept close to the Soviet Border.

The Centurions deployed never had to face other armour, barring a captured Cromwell the RIH had to put down. Chaffees and Easy 8 Shermans, with quite small numbers of Pershings,. did most of the heavy lifting initially, bolstered by the later arrival of M46 Pattons.

Offline Arrigo

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #114 on: August 11, 2018, 06:18:00 PM »
In the first few months it certainly was the case, but the NK armoured corps was eventually wiped out by air attack, or abandoned after mechanical failure or lack of fuel (and then attacked from the air anyway) during the retreat after the Pusan Breakout and Inchon Landings.

Certainly after November 1950 there appear to be no encounters with either T-34 or SU-76; a few panic attacks when abandoned/destroyed vehicles 'appeared' excepted. The IS-IIs they possessed were kept out of the fight and were eventually kept close to the Soviet Border.

The Centurions deployed never had to face other armour, barring a captured Cromwell the RIH had to put down. Chaffees and Easy 8 Shermans, with quite small numbers of Pershings,. did most of the heavy lifting initially, bolstered by the later arrival of M46 Pattons.

Well airpower was largely ineffective against tanks in Korea. Tank kills of the first 5 months of the war were extensively analyzed (the luxury of recapturing all the terrain and getting the wrecks). Considering only destroyed (not abandoned) abandoned tanks the BRL teams counted around 160 wrecks (quoting from memory). Much more than half of those wrecks were hit by direct tank fire, roughly half by M26 the other rough half by Sherman 76, one by M24. If I recall correctly air to ground kills were less than 40. The balance being artillery, bazookas, mines. Of course you can argue that the abandoned tanks were a byproduct  of supply interdiction...  lol

About the post July 51 tank losses... according to Chinese records they and the KPA lost several T-34/85 to combat action. One Chinese regiment lost around 75% of vehivles on the frontline, then Chinese tanks were husbanded back. so there was definitely PLA/KPA use of tanks in the second part of the war. Now, I have only seen big data... sooner or later I will have to try to grab regiment/battalion reports... but as a friend told me 'the government wants to keep secret even our lunch, guess military archives!'

"Put Grant straight in"

for pretty tanks and troops: http://forwardhq.blogspot.com

Offline Arlequín

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2018, 11:01:44 PM »
The Operations Research Office (ORO) would beg to differ with those figures.

According to them (Employment of armor in Korea, 1951) North Korea committed and appear to have lost some 320 T-34/85 tanks during the invasion and retreat of 1950. Investigators managed to locate 239 wrecks between Sept and Oct 1950, of which only 39 were assessed to have definitely been knocked out by other tanks. Some of those had been hit by various different weapons, presumably when encountered some time after being knocked out in the first place. In comparison 102 had been destroyed by air attack, napalm accounting for 60 of those.

Given the U.S. Army was suffering something like 40% total losses to mechanical failure (M26 & M46, 20% M4) and 38% of combat losses were due to mines, I'm not certain that many tankers even saw a T-34 that was still 'live'. Granted that when they did they typically took down around five for each of their own, unless they were in M24s.

A copy of the report can be downloaded here; http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll11/id/1685

Offline Arrigo

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #116 on: August 12, 2018, 12:55:51 PM »
I beg to differ because a later (1953)  ORO report clearly states that:

89 tanks were destroyed by US Army or USMC tanks on a total of 119 tank vs tank action examined to november 50. Break down was the following:



M-24: 1
M-4: 41
M-26: 29
M-46: 18

Other causes:

aircraft: 27
grenade: 3 (!)
mines: 1
RCL: 9
Bazooka: 11
Artillery: 20
unconfirmed causes: 63

Total: 223 plus an additional 33 damaged (and abandoned/recovered by UN forces)

The report I am looking into was disseminated in 1954.

There was an earlier report covering up to September 1950 (but disseminated in April 51) that listed much less tank engagements and tank vs tank kills in the same period, but it was then revised with air kills reduced considerably. The original report credited air with 102 kills napalm being 60, I assume this is the report you are looking at.  Of course Far East Air Forces claimed 1256 tanks killed by air from June 1950 to June 1952...

Offline Arlequín

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #117 on: August 12, 2018, 04:21:56 PM »
There was an earlier report covering up to September 1950 (but disseminated in April 51) that listed much less tank engagements and tank vs tank kills in the same period, but it was then revised with air kills reduced considerably.

Personally I trust the guys who were on the ground, looking at the vehicles in situ, shortly after the action took place, more than I do a 'subsequent revision' somewhat later and elsewhere. I mean, if tanks weren't worth the expense, budgets for them might be adjusted. In 1954 it was all "we have an air force and the 'H-Bomb', who needs an army, let alone tanks?". 

 ;)

Offline Arrigo

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #118 on: August 12, 2018, 09:17:07 PM »
Actually I trust more the 54' report. It is more complete, and the wrecks were carefully inspected with time.  Steve Zaloga trusts  the 54' report more  too.  Actually there is the case that the 50/51 report was done in a hurry, without too much examination and there was an effort to justify effectiveness of CAS. anyway if I recall correctly the 50/51 is labelled as preliminary.

Of course each one is free to believe what he wants...   

Offline Sakura

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Re: I am looking for Korean War in 28
« Reply #119 on: August 13, 2018, 08:39:46 AM »
Very interested to see that this thread has recently been revived.  Also pleased to hear that the Korean war is to receive the Warlord treatment in the near future.
Anything that brings this largely forgotten war to the wargamers attention must be a good thing.

I am currently planning to run a Korean war game on the second weekend of September involving about 10 players.  That is if I can find a new venue in time as we have just been told that our first choice has been double booked. :(

Clearly I am not going to be able to be too fussy about having all the figures in the correct uniforms.  Apart from the Devils Brigade figures already mentioned there will certainly have to be lots of WW2 figures and lots of Back of Beyond and Sino-Japanese figures for the opposition.  If I waited for all the right figures to be available none of my projects would ever happen.  And yes, rules will be Bolt Action as everyone seems to know them already.

1st Corps make 8 british and 8 chinese figures.  One of our number commissioned some N Korean figures under the name of Adarga.  Also, Reiver Castings are about to bring out a Korean War range.  No support weapons other than WW2 seem to be available although I did find an M66 honeycomb mortar, in resin, on Ebay from Any-Scale Models.

 

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