*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 18, 2019, 09:31:28 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent

Author Topic: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread  (Read 1028000 times)

Offline Col. Aubrey Bagshot

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • mad scientist
  • *
  • Posts: 674
  • Remember... something
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2013, 10:50:15 AM »
I have half a dozen...  you should have asked....
Money can't buy you happiness but it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery.
Spike Milligan

Offline Vermis

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • scatterbrained genius
  • *
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2013, 10:59:47 AM »
Theres plenty of people out there still willing to pay for their marines fix.

But fewer of them, if the people taking about sales numbers are right.

Every time there's a new release, or a price rise (usually coinciding), some people give up on 'the GW hobby™'. But some don't feel the need to protest the soaring costs, claiming with a beatific air that they don't mind paying out because it's still 'good value' to them.
I sometimes wonder where their cut-off is. Maybe it'll be somewhere around the point where they gladly pay £18 per plastic tactical marine - let alone plastic commanders - but can't game with them because the other two-dozen people keeping GW's head above water are too far-spread over the globe.
'Course then you'll probably still have some lotus-eater declaring "I don't mind booking flights halfway across the world every other week to play toy soldiers - it's still great value 'cos 40K is the best background evar!"

Offline beefcake

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • galactic brain
  • *
  • Posts: 6425
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »
Lotr ones? How much? :)
No, wood elf ones, I think at last view they were about $nz60 so not much of a saving.


Offline Dolmot

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • mastermind
  • *
  • Posts: 1375
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2013, 11:26:19 AM »
There are so many viable alternatives these days - mins and games

There aren't. If you take a look at GW's annual report, you can find a list of potential risks in the CEO's section. They are:

People (that is, their staff)
Fantasy becoming unfashionable (where 'fantasy' obviously covers all fiction including marines)
The factory burns down
External threats (costs, materials, taxes, recessions)
Counterfeit products

The last point is elaborated by losing control of IP or someone making illegal copies. This part is sort of interesting in itself:

Quote
Should that change, or we meet intransigent small infringers, we have copyright, trademark and passing off law to protect our imagery and we have never been shy of using legal redress if needed. Our legal department deals with dozens of cases each year with satisfactory results.

The scale upon which we do business is the biggest defence against this threat. The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year) are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who 'cease and desist' as soon as they get the letter. Those who don't should be stopped more because we need to ensure everyone knows we are serious about defending our IP rather than because of the immediate threat of damage to our profits.

Read: small players can be bullied out without due process in borderline cases. Only Chapterhouse was crazy enough to go to court. Anyway, that wasn't the point of this post. I was getting to the observation that nowhere they admit the existence of alternative miniature manufacturers or game systems. Computer games, yes. Card games and RPGs, yes. Counterfeit copies, yes. Never the possibility of someone else coming up with a miniature game. It's not admitted to their fan base nor to their investors. PP, Wyrd, Battlefront, Mantic, Corvus Belli and such just don't exist. Miniatures = space marines.

Meanwhile, in Vancouver I saw a full-blown gaming store which only stocked PP and Wyrd, yet not even a single token box of the Hobbit, IIRC. Last weekend we ran a multi-system tournament with Warmachine players clearly outnumbering 40k and roughly matching WHFB. This just couldn't have happened 10 years ago with any alternative system.

Then again, WHFB and 40k are brilliant systems, because they (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi. They have enough branded stuff to differentiate the worlds from their generic counterparts, but anything can be shoe-horned in. Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux. That's why those behemoths are so hard to displace. The only way to cover equally many typical fantasy or sci-fi races and settings is to make a "GW rip-off". You can make fairly original games in a steampunk world but that's just not as cool or widely appealing.

And now I no longer know whether I got to my actual point or lost it completely...

Offline Conquistador

  • galactic brain
  • Posts: 4375
  • There are hostile eye watching us from the arroyos
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2013, 11:51:42 AM »
There aren't.<snip>

Then again, WHFB and 40k are brilliant systems, because they (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi. They have enough branded stuff to differentiate the worlds from their generic counterparts, but anything can be shoe-horned in. Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux. That's why those behemoths are so hard to displace. The only way to cover equally many typical fantasy or sci-fi races and settings is to make a "GW rip-off". You can make fairly original games in a steampunk world but that's just not as cool or widely appealing.

And now I no longer know whether I got to my actual point or lost it completely...

Yes, there are.     ::)

Brilliant does not come to mind when I think of those games.   :P

There have been, before GW, many great rules for Fantasy and SF games; there are now; and there will be after GW goes away.  What GW does best is market and, almost as well, unabashedly coerce young (and old) gamers into the "GW Hobby" mindset.    o_o

"... Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux."  If your world is restricted to just those three, perhaps.  I have not played any of them but I have played many such games since the 1970's quite satisfactorily.

"... (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi"  - Damned by faint praise at best.  And highly inaccurate.  Not to mention the kool-aid stains...

"...  The only way to cover equally many typical fantasy or sci-fi races and settings is to make a "GW rip-off"."  That is a most amazingly arrogant and ignorant assertion.  Here is a refutation of such drivel: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html that may enlighten you.

Gracias,

Glenn
 

Viva Alta California!  Las guerras de España,  Las guerras de las Américas,  Las guerras para la Libertad!

Offline Cubs

  • scatterbrained genius
  • Posts: 3535
  • "I simply cannot survive without beauty ..."
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2013, 12:34:01 PM »
Kind of what he said. GW is so incestuous it is its own sister. They don't appear to have realised yet that the Warhammer and WH40K universes are not the sum of the hobby and that by ignoring that possibility, they are feeding their rivals. Getting rid of the core of their visionary creators and senior staff didn't help either. All they did was toddle off and ... surprise surprise ... start up rival companies!

GW did not invent Fantasy or Sci-Fi, and if they lifted their heads away from the copyright lists they might see that gamers and hobbyists have many, many more colourful and inviting games systems and some exceptional miniature ranges, all at a fraction of the GW cost. Twenty years ago, this most certainly was not the case. The only people who think that WHFB and WH40K are the only 'real' games are the die-hard Fanboyz and since fanaticism grows on opposition, it's probably best not to try to talk to them sensibly.

No-one needs to try to copy GW, GW only copied other games, mythologies, universes etc.. and, fair play to them, they did it very well. I loved Warhammer as a kid and if it wasn't for Citadel miniatures I probably wouldn't be in the hobby today. They revolutionised the way hobbyists collect and model and pioneered a very effective monopoly on the whole genre. Hats off.

But there are now other options and they're growing every day. The slick marketing, the gorgeous sculpts and paintjobs and the professionalism that brought GW its success is not something they can copyright and other companies are doing very nicely off it. That's without talking about disgruntled ex-GWers who feel cheated by a company they supported for years.

By GW's own figures, they are making less sales, yet making higher profits off those sales. This is allowing them to just about make a small profit, when taking into account the money from selling licences. Not bad in an economic depression, eh? Well, the problem is, hobby sales actually tend to rise during an economic depression, as people turn to 'feel good' sales and look at the amount of quality companies we now have who have appeared and flourished during the same period.

How are GW going to grow that shrinking pool of customers? They've lost a big part of the independent market now, with more and more retailers getting shot of GW's products. If they were selling, that wouldn't be happening. That means the gaming community outside of GW-owned clubs is playing other systems. Less and less parents will be introducing their children to the game ... it goes on. Who on earth is making these decisions? The people in charge have inherited a superbly successful and beloved hobby company and done something unpleasant to it.

I don't have any antipathy towards GW as a whole and don't have any axe to grind. In fact my fondest childhood memories of the hobby all centre around the Warhammer game and the miniatures. But other companies now provide comparable or superior (in my own opinion of course) figures, rulebooks and hobby supplies at a fraction of the cost. I'd have to be an even bigger eejit than I am not to recognise that. I wish GW could have been content with being the market leader, instead of concentrating its energies on being a market dictator.

But hey, what do I know? I'm speculating based on what I've seen over the thirty years I've been in the hobby. I'm wrong more than I'm right.
'Sir John ejaculated explosively, sitting up in his chair.' ... 'The Black Gang'.

Paul Cubbin Miniature Painter

Offline Timbor

  • mastermind
  • Posts: 1402
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2013, 06:00:52 PM »
I would say that for mass fantasy/sci fi battles, GW still has the upper hand in quality barring a few unfortunate recent releases.  A certain amount of 'you get what you pay for' does apply, as most of the knockoff stuff is just not the same quality overall.  Though the market of skirmish games has really produced some gorgeous miniatures.  However, on a per figure basis, I don't find skirmish miniatures any cheaper (if not more expensive in some cases).  You just need less of them for a game.

GW is projecting the image of a high-end game, which has associated status compared to 'cheaper' and 'value' games.  Luckily I am young enough that I will be able to observe if they make a success of it in the end.  My bet is they will still be around in 15+ years.
Paint log - leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=36840.0

Blog - My life in Millimetres

Offline Vermis

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • scatterbrained genius
  • *
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2013, 06:16:08 PM »
Nicely said, Glenn and Cubs!

Yes, there are.     ::)

Brilliant does not come to mind when I think of those games.   :P

There have been, before GW, many great rules for Fantasy and SF games; there are now; and there will be after GW goes away.  What GW does best is market and, almost as well, unabashedly coerce young (and old) gamers into the "GW Hobby" mindset.    o_o

Agreed wholeheartedly.  I remember when I used to think Warhammer was the only fantasy game in town - back when I only hung around GW Belfast. These days I'm spoiled for choice for fantasy games, even with Warhammer kicked off the bottom of the list...

Quote
"... Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux."  If your world is restricted to just those three, perhaps.  I have not played any of them but I have played many such games since the 1970's quite satisfactorily.

... and Warmahordes and Malifaux barely registering on the list.  ;)

Quote
"... (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi"  - Damned by faint praise at best.  And highly inaccurate.  Not to mention the kool-aid stains...

I recently read posts by another guy who declared that the 40K and WHFB systems reigned supreme because they were all you ever needed for any game, any period, any scale; and I wasn't too impressed by that either. One of his points was that if you wanted to play historical vikings, you could collect a Space Wolf army. All the guns and power armour and psykers etc. just made it 'better'.  ;D

Quote
Here is a refutation of such drivel: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html that may enlighten you.

There's some of my evening's reading sorted out.

But all that said...

Quote
GW only copied other games, mythologies, universes etc.. and, fair play to them, they did it very well. I loved Warhammer as a kid and if it wasn't for Citadel miniatures I probably wouldn't be in the hobby today.

Agreed there too. GW even introduced me to what a good game and system really was, via Epic: Armageddon. Ironic that they considered it and other Specialist Games a 'rival option' towards the end, when they still supported it, or at least acknowledged it's existance. Now you could say it's truly a rival option, all but owned by the fan community, albeit on a pretty small scale. (No, not the mm height!)

Offline Dolmot

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • mastermind
  • *
  • Posts: 1375
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2013, 07:16:13 PM »
Well, that got too surreal for words.

Offline Cubs

  • scatterbrained genius
  • Posts: 3535
  • "I simply cannot survive without beauty ..."
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2013, 07:56:15 PM »
Luckily I am young enough that I will be able to observe if they make a success of it in the end.  My bet is they will still be around in 15+ years.

Cheeky get! I hope I'll be here in 15yrs time as well!

Offline Conquistador

  • galactic brain
  • Posts: 4375
  • There are hostile eye watching us from the arroyos
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2013, 11:21:24 PM »
Well, that got too surreal for words.

Sometimes reality does that.   ;)   lol

Gracias,

Glenn

Offline weismonsters

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • scientist
  • *
  • Posts: 379
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2013, 11:22:44 PM »
Well, that got too surreal for words.

Thanks for posting that quote and your thoughts. I didnt agree with all you wrote, but dont feel the need to make personally belittling comments as a result of it.

Offline Dolmot

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • mastermind
  • *
  • Posts: 1375
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #87 on: September 20, 2013, 02:37:26 PM »
...

OK, I'm just leaving for a gaming weekend at a remote cottage but I'd like to clarify a few things you may not be fully aware of:

  • I got quite miffed with certain policies of GW in the early 00s and completely pissed off in 2008 or so. That's when I stopped buying and playing completely, out of principle.
  • I've advocated alternative manufacturers and systems locally and online for ten years or so. You could say I've dedicated a good chunk of that time to actively undermining GW's monopoly-like position, because it's an unhealthy situation for gaming as a whole.
  • I've founded a ~50-member gaming club where alternative games are played 95% of time.
  • Also, I consider myself as the originator of a recurring national summer event, where the whole point is to play non-GW games.
  • I posted the very same link you so proudly present here about a month ago on another forum where we discussed the relation of Chainmail, D&D, Blackmoor and NEWA's demo game in 1970.
  • "Brilliant" referred solely to the market position GW has managed to acquire and now defends. As their game is the only "generic goblins and elves" product with plentiful shelf presence and recognition, all new enterpreneurs must either deviate from the classic references or get labelled as copycats - because that's what practically happens. "Rip-off" was given in quotation marks, based on long-term experience on e.g. myself trying to suggest the alternatives.
  • I own copies of Armies of Arcana, God of Battles, Fantasy Warriors and possibly a few others. And a few dozen non-classic-fantasy games on top of that.

All these can be verified with medium effort.

And now we got to the actual point, which is the sad state of reality where I live. Regardless of myself owning those books and fantasy minis from ~20 manufacturers:

  • They have zero visibility on stores' shelves. The local ones have a few Mantic boxes shoved in a bargain bin and that's all. Non-GW rules cannot be bought unless you search for them online - which people just don't do spontaneously.
  • I don't have a single chance of playing those games unless I spend loads of time pushing them to people and providing every single component. Meanwhile, a WH game can be arranged in ten minutes any day. Game store owners basically get paid for pushing WH all day.
  • Snowball has a better chance in hell than Bob, 12, buying any other fantasy ruleset than WHFB or LotR. The same mostly applies to miniatures. If you do, you're the poor kid with second-grade toys and no friends. Cool kids have the latest mega-monster box with "GW" and skulls on it.

I also like to tell myself the lie that alternative gaming is viable and doing well, but it's only remotely connected to the reality. That's why I play and organise something completely different where I don't have to compete directly with GW products. Congratulations if in your neck of the woods other games actually get played. I'm trying but it's a tedious uphill struggle, stealing the free time I could use to actually play games.

So would you like to check the facts, re-read the topic and reconsider your motives to publicly call me a fanboy, "arrogant", "ignorant", "kool-aid drinker" and "unenlightened"? Or did you simply look for a juicy target to blurt out that outright offensive stock drivel without even bothering to check the basics first? You surely did nice job getting a few pals to join the bashing ring based on false assumptions and accusations.

Have a nice weekend. I'll check the state of affairs when I return.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 02:39:55 PM by Dolmot »

Offline Westfalia Chris

  • Cardboard Warlord
  • Administrator
  • galactic brain
  • Posts: 6703
  • Elaborate! Elucidate! Evaluate!
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #88 on: September 20, 2013, 04:14:47 PM »
May I ask all involved to cool down so that we can try to continue this discussion in a civilized and polite fashion. And, I repeat, this goes out to ALL involved, so nobody should feel specifically-targeted.

Also, may I point out that the usual state of affairs for a local gaming community is most likely strongly influenced by the most popular games around, which tend to be GW. Now, "popular" is not a byword for quality, and I strongly recall an age where we were quite happy that our FLGS did stock other games next to GW, but they never quite reached critical mass to become a viable venture for the FLGS to keep supporting it, or when they did, the company failed due to problems higher up the chain (Target Games, I'm looking at you), leaving those that had invested in the game stranded.

This led to the local players falling back unto established games, and at that time, the entry-level barrier towards GW games was much lower than it is today. As has been pointed out, getting people together for a game of 40k was much easier than anything else.

I'm worried to see it again at the moment with Dystopian Wars - my FLGS has a lot of stuff from that range due to a strong influx of new gamers when the latest rulebook was released, but that seems to have fizzled, and I am worried he may never shift all of the product, leaving him with a high investment not to be recouped quickly (and that was actually not overbuying, but rather stocking a wide, but limited selection of the range available).

It may also be a case of biased perception in that we meet in an international online discussion forum not linked to a single game or period, which will obviously leave an impression that all the gaming world is such a multi-faceted place.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:18:09 PM by Westfalia Chris »

Offline OSHIROmodels

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • elder god
  • *
  • Posts: 21400
  • Custom terrain a speciality.
    • Oshiro modelterrain
Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #89 on: September 20, 2013, 04:44:57 PM »
Now, "popular" is not a byword for quality

Same goes for music... Just look at Beiber and One Direction  lol

cheers

James

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
26 Replies
12019 Views
Last post January 18, 2015, 11:23:57 AM
by Arlequín
4 Replies
1967 Views
Last post October 05, 2013, 12:39:52 PM
by janner
1 Replies
1290 Views
Last post June 24, 2014, 05:10:45 AM
by Westfalia Chris
250 Replies
70569 Views
Last post June 19, 2015, 03:11:30 AM
by syrinx0
146 Replies
8334 Views
Last post February 08, 2018, 05:50:06 PM
by Bahir