Scandinavia in the 5th cen - questions (only text)

[Dr. The Viking]

Hi there!

I was reading a children's history book to my kids and it told the tale of Rolf Krake, a mythological Danish king, and his main adversary, Swedish king Adils.

It immediately got me thinking that some wargaming about this was in order. But what on Earth would 5th century Danes and Swedes look like?! Goths?! Saxons?! Cavemen?

I think the Dark Age Warriors box from Gripping Beast would be a nice start... but the two sides would look almost identical then.

So, in essence, have anyone got any pointers on this?

[northtroll]

Read Poul Anderson's "Hrolf Kraki's Saga", for starters! I think you would see a lot less mail armor on the warriors, and the spear would be the most common weapon. Vendel Culture style helmets with mail face coverings instead of goggled helms come to mind. You can add in fantastic things too, as this is the darker pre-history of Scandanavia where Berserks could shapechange! Early Saxons might not look too out of place either.

[Michi]

Read Poul Anderson's "Hrolf Kraki's Saga", for starters! I think you would see a lot less mail armor on the warriors, and the spear would be the most common weapon. Vendel Culture style helmets with mail face coverings instead of goggled helms come to mind. You can add in fantastic things too, as this is the darker pre-history of Scandanavia where Berserks could shapechange! Early Saxons might not look too out of place either.

Read it and second all.

[former user]

well, here for starters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Iron_Age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendel_era

The Goths are long gone and started from Sweden (at least as far archaeology can tell) and it is too early for the Saxon conquest and supremacy. Cavemen - don't think so, too late and too icy in Denmark in the pleistocene , but a thriving mesolithic and neolithic region actually, but again, too early.

Vendel era is actually quite a good hint for appearance
Denmark is quite a backwater during this time and rather mythological as far as history is concerned. We are pretty much in a traditional germanic society, so don't expect elaborate weapons on everyone, but still very skilled metalwork on the nobility etc.
the Jutes and Danes are linked with post roman Britain as much as to the founding norse mythology and the rest of Scandinavia.
if we go with linguistic theory the inhabitants of Jutland might have even been Saxon....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvaeonic_languages


And, not that uniformed either - no heraldry yet and the warbands must have been so small that the chaps must have known each other, at least the ones they were rowing the longboats with together.

in an (educated..?) guess I could expect a few to be fortune seekers in Merovingian service, if there are miniatures to represent this. Mercenaries had a strong stradition in germanic culture

[Red Orc]

OK; the lost Saga of Hrolf Kraki (re-assembled from some bits by Poul Anderson) is as northtroll and Michi have said a damn good place to start.

Hygelac whose death is mentioned in Beowulf is supposed to have died around AD521 or maybe 525 while raiding the Frankish lands in what is now the Netherlands (wiki link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygelac ) and Hrolf Kraki a little later. This is about the same time as Theodoric the Great, Ostrogothic King of Italy.

Incidentally the Chronicler Matthew Paris (not sure where his info comes from) lists for AD527 'pagans who came from Germany and occupied East Anglia...'. This event (if real) may be connected with the iner-family strife of the Danish royal house at this time (or it may be unrelated), I merely offer it as a historical curiosity.

So yes, Saxons if you like, as long as 'Saxons' also includes Jutes, Frisians, Angles, the Hetware, Heathobards, Franks and a dozen other North European people of the time. A few (nobles and the like) could maybe even pass for Goths.

[Emir of Askaristan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23849332

See above. Probably a bit earlier than your period in question, but given we know what they wore in later times and it wasn't much different, the suggestions of early Saxons is probably sound.

[axabrax]

Edit: My bad--I thought you said 6th century! The book recommended below would still be interesting but a little late. I'd check out Musketeers Goths and Gripping Beast early Saxons for minis instead...


The book you want is called Woden's Warriors by Paul Mortimer. It elaborates extensively on exactly this period in Vendel Sweden. There's a lot of crossover between the Sutton Hoo burial and the period you're interested in. I would say Gripping Beasts 6-7th century Saxon range is about as perfect as you'll find. Yes, the two sides will look alike, as would any other Viking vs Viking battle. Use different banners, shield motifs, and prominent leaders to differentiate...

[janner]

I think Vendel/Sutton Hoo is a little late for what you are after. However, your early Saxon raiders are probably as good as any matey  

[former user]

here, these are interesting reads

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_migration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_in_Early_Anglo-Saxon_England

[Hammers]

Foundry have several suitable miniatures from the 'Folkvandringstiden' I doubt you will find miniatures more 'correct' than those.

[axabrax]

Probably, although in the book I mentioned the author argues that much of the 6th - 7th century armor was probably heirloom quality and had been passed on for several generations before finally going into the ground. In my mind it's fuzzy enough that you can throw in a few later figs without arousing too much suspicion  Gotta love those Vendel helmets after all!

I think Vendel/Sutton Hoo is a little late for what you are after. However, your early Saxon raiders are probably as good as any matey  

[Dr. The Viking]

Foundry have several suitable miniatures from the 'Folkvandringstiden' I doubt you will find miniatures more 'correct' than those.

Please do link, old fruit.