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Author Topic: Just for curiosity sake  (Read 5354 times)

Offline Conquistador

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Just for curiosity sake
« on: September 05, 2013, 10:21:37 AM »
Back in the 1970's e used to have these discussions about how certain species/races of characters should look/act/etc., and one of those was height of a <fill-in the blank>

One of the positions was scale could be reflected in how "tall" a figure was.

It 5 mm was 1 foot, (an assumption based more on the figures available more than any theory of fantasy anatomy,) then a Halfling should be about 15 to 20 mm tall, a Dwarf about 20 to 25 mm tall, an elf about 25 to 30 mm tall and a human about 30+ mm tall.  Now most metal human figures, (WARNING, Will Robinson: in my area according to my memory,) were around 25 mm tall or less - plastics were predominantly 1/72nd scale - so that really wasn't that well reflected in our FRPG and fantasy war game selections.

I still have my old Der Kriegspieler, (and I keep adding to them,) Halfling/Elf/Dwarf units/figures but my fantasy humans, (what small handful that remains,) are not a bit over 25 mm.  I no longer GM FRPGs since AD&D 2nd came out, (and the Wife became a Mom back in the late 1990s by adoption,) but

[dramatic pause]

IF I ever started playing again, which I don't plan to do, while I almost certainly would play dwarf characters, I might want a human that would match up well in the  30 mm tall height area and would reflect my fighter/ranger type preferences for a human.  What current lines of historical/fantasy humans in would today be the ones I should consider?   As a consideration - details would include probably be armed with a spear, dagger, club, hand axe initially, so bonus points if so armed; chain mail armor if affordable; simply dress for the setting.

Yeah, just a conversation starter, as I sit here waking up to go to work.

Gracis,

Glenn

Viva Alta California!  Las guerras de España,  Las guerras de las Américas,  Las guerras para la Libertad!

Offline Sirolf

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 01:50:49 PM »
It's hard to find good historical humans at 30mm. For more fantasy themed ones, you would have to go with Reaper and Otherworld, or even with some of the most recent GW empire models.

Offline robh

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 06:00:09 PM »
Renegade and Redoubt are amongst the largest of the Historical ranges, both have good options.

Offline Andrew May

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 08:33:52 PM »

Offline Spooktalker

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 02:15:21 AM »
Just want to say that my collection of "25mm" mostly American style figures average out to 5mm per foot on the nose and many are from the 70s. Pretty much the only ones smaller are the 1976-77 era Ral Partha ones like the superhero, patriarch, etc., and they are not smaller by much. Many early Grenadiers and Heritage are on the larger size, both in height and bulkiness.

For curiosity's sake, as you say, I grabbed the closest old figs and I've got (all measurements to top of head and do not include the base height):

Ral Partha 1976 historical longbowman: 28mm (5' 8" in the 5mm/foot scale)
Ral partha witch 1976: 25mm (5' in scale)
Ral Partha dwarf 1976: 23mm
Ral Partha goblin 1976: 22mm
Grenadier AD&D female thief: 27mm
Grenadier AD&D magic user: 27mm
Dungeon Dweller knight: 28.5mm
Grenadier AD&D cleric: 30mm
Grenadier Guthrie elf (late 80s): 27.5mm
Grenadier Guthrie human thief (late 80s): 28mm
Guthrie ranger: 29mm

And to compare, a few gw figures. these might be a mm taller on average, but are almost twice as massive in many cases:
Jes Goodwin elf 30mm
Bob Naismith GW undead 29mm

Anyway, these all seem to fit your ideal scale perfectly. Just not sure where you got the notion an average human should be +6' anyway'? It's definitely not true for our own present, and historically they say people were shorter.

Also, beware, modern figures you really have no idea how they scale unless you have a comparison photo. "28mm" figures are sometimes 35mm+.

Also just to stir the pot, most "25mm" short people are WAY oversized. Halflings, goblins, dwarfs in some cases, mites, sprites, etc. and that is true right up to the present.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 02:17:28 AM by Spooktalker »

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 03:01:20 AM »
<snip>

Anyway, these all seem to fit your ideal scale perfectly. Just not sure where you got the notion an average human should be +6' anyway'? It's definitely not true for our own present, and historically they say people were shorter.

<snip>

I never said that.   >:(  Go back and read my OP.   :o

It was one of the assumption filled discussions we had back in the 1970s about fantasy races.  It's primary merit was you could immediately identify a player character's race/species by the height of the figure.  It was pretty much dogma for several years in my gaming groups.   ::)  I didn't it was "true" in historical or fantasy literature terms.

It was one of the assumptions some of my fellow gamers presented (usually the fantasy but not historical game playing ones) who seemed to want every hero to be "Conanesque."   :o   ::)

Many of my contemporaries in the 1970s insisted elves had to be shorter than humans and taller than dwarves.  I argued that 6+' elves would explain some of their assumed prowess along with the long years from "semi-immortal existence,"  and "magic" [as in non-spell casting sense of inherent (I am tired, I think that is the word I want) abilities.]   Such thoughts were rejected as (my words) non-canonical heresy.

I also argued (also unsuccessfully) against the "everybody knows common wisdom" that elves could be shorter than dwarves (but those were dismissed as "fairies") in fantasy games.  D&D and 'common knowledge' based on skimmed LOTR copies stratified my fantasy gaming for several years.   :(   :-[   o_o

Nobody wanted average sized human heroes (except me) but that was "explained away" by them as "Glenn's short and he is just 'projecting' himself into a hero character."  What the heck was wrong with a 5' 4" or 5' 6' hero?  (I am 5' 4.5" according to most physicals; rounded up or down by whim as far as I can tell.

I am not an expert on Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser but when I pointed out that they were both heroes I was "corrected" that the Mouser was a thief not a fighter so of course he wasn't a 'normal' sized human hero.   ???

That said, I can find  "25 mm" tall humans from my handful of medieval warriors if I wanted humans the size of my elves or smaller.  With my elves around 25 +/- mm tall I was wondering if a 30 mm human fight fit "in scale" in a party based on that old 5 mm = 1 ' assumption.   ;)

Humans are pretty much non-existent in my Fantasy War Game world and highly distrusted when they appear in the 'civilized kingdoms' since the humans were the ones who brought on the apocalyptic events that almost destroyed my game world.  Humans are definitely a stand out (in all the bad sense of the phrase) in a world dominated by Dwarves ruling over simmering rebellion from Elf/Gnome/Halfling [second class] "citizens" and where the Orcs/Goblins are the "Revolutionary French" to the Dwarven "Ancien Regime."  So a 6'+ human would be very appropriately noticable in my setting.  I only really need one for my purposes so he/she should stand out.

Gracias,

Glenn
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 03:11:45 AM by Conquistador »

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 03:06:28 AM »
<snip>

Also just to stir the pot, most "25mm" short people are WAY oversized. Halflings, goblins, dwarfs in some cases, mites, sprites, etc. and that is true right up to the present.

Yes, I agree - I have some Essex (?) Dwarves that simply overwhelm over my handful of humans and all my Der Kriegspieler Dwarf figures in mass.  Buying the Essex Dwarf figures was the worst decision I ever made.

Edit: the DK dwarves vary from 18 mm to 23 (IIRC) tall averaging about 21 mm if I remember correctly what I measured almost two decades ago.

Gracias,

Glenn
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 03:08:20 AM by Conquistador »

Offline Spooktalker

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 06:43:17 AM »
I never said that.   >:(  Go back and read my OP.   :o

Makes a lot more sense now with your added explanation. If you care for Sandra Garrity's style you might want to try searching Reaper's catalog "sku up" as the old ones are more likely to be nearer to 30mm and they have more historical costume. They have their collection tagged pretty well so you can search by weapon, gender, class, etc.

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 12:57:40 PM »
Makes a lot more sense now with your added explanation. If you care for Sandra Garrity's style you might want to try searching Reaper's catalog "sku up" as the old ones are more likely to be nearer to 30mm and they have more historical costume. They have their collection tagged pretty well so you can search by weapon, gender, class, etc.


Okay, lack of clarity on my part.  I understand that you lose up to 80% (which seems a lot) of communication clues in print compared to body language/speech in person.  

I want a single 30 mm (or slightly taller) figure to represent a tall human figure NPC (or a PC if I ever return to FRPG - unlikely but never say never -  where taller humans are the standard) since my handful of my pre-gunpowder era historical figures are around the height of my elves.  I want him/her to represent the "big bad evil of the past" of the tales told by the non-humans races to their children in my game setting.  He/She doesn't have to be evil just have the reputation of "Humans bring evil with them" associated with their race/species.

I think my 1970s local group got the 5 mm = 1 foot idea fixated in their unconscious from the first mass fantasy battles of Gygax/Perrin created Chain mail rules we use for a massive campaign where I believe it specified 4' (dwarves) to be 20 mm, 5 ' (Elves) 25 mm, and 6' (Humans) 30 mm.  I will have to check with some friends who might own the rules still to see if that is in the 2nd edition (?) fantasy supplement in the back of the rules.  

I wonder what Gygax and Perrin used for humans in those early games.  Or if they just ignored that part of the Chainmail fantasy rules.  Or maybe the leaders of that 1970s group just "connected the dots" in an unintended way.

But I am digressing...

Gracias,

Glenn


« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:00:30 PM by Conquistador »

Offline Spooktalker

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2013, 04:36:08 PM »
Yeah, it's hard to get ones point across and then even when you do someone like me will misinterpret you.  lol I've got a lot of drafts of blog posts where I start to try to make a point and then leave it off for later when it starts to require a lot of effort.

It's funny I arrived at the 5mm/foot scale myself by measuring a lot of my miniatures and taking the average. It's also the ground scale I use, which is a good fit for Dwarven Forge and most card systems and ready-made floorplans.

The question of what Gygax and gamers of the time did is a really fascinating one.

Here's from Chainmail 3rd ed:

Quote
The LGTSA Medieval Miniatures Rules were developed primarily for use with Elastolin and Starlux figures, which are 40mm scale. However, they may be used equally well with any scale — including the inexpensive Airfix "Robin Hood" and "Sheriff ofNottingham" 25mm plastic figures. Although the rules have been thoroughly play-tested over a period of many months, it is likely that you will eventuallyfindsomepartthatseemsambiguous,unanswered,orunsatisfactory.

When such a situation arises settle it among yourselves, record the decision in the rules book, and abide by it from then on. These rules may be treated as guide lines around which you form a game that suits you. It is always a good idea to amend the rules to allow for historical precedence or common sense — follow the spirit of the rules rather than the letter.

The ratio of figures to men assumed is 1:20, the ground scale is 1":10 yards, and one turn of play is roughly equivalent to one minute of time in battle. The troopratiowillholdtruefor30mmfigures,but if a smaller scale is used it should be reduced to 1:10.

AD&D 1ed Dungeon Master's Guide is even more interesting because Gyxgax seems to contradict himself.

In the meandering introduction you first find:

Quote
As a rule of thumb, HO scale is 25 mm = 1 actual inch = 6’ in  scale height or length or breadth.

Figure bases are necessarily broad in order to assure that the figures will stand in the proper position and not constantly be falling over. Because of  this, it is usually necessary to use a ground scale twice that of the actual scale for HO, and squares of about 1 actual inch per side are suggested.  Each ground scale inch can then be used ta equal 3% linear feet, so a 10’ wide scale corridor is 3 actual inches in width and shown as 3 separate  squares. This allows depiction of the typical array of three figures abreast,  and also enables easy handling of such figures when they are moved. While you may not find it convenient to actually use such figures and floor  plans to handle routine dungeon movement, having sheets of squares for  encounter area depiction will probably be quite helpful. If you do so, be  certain to remember that ground scale differsfrom figure scale, and when dealing with length, two man-sized figures per square is quite possible, as  the space is actually 6 scale feet with respect to length. This is meaningful when attacking a snake, dragon, etc. if characters are able to attack the creature’s body length. With respect to basically bipedal, erect opponents, scale will not be a factor.


First off, it's really funny to me that up to this point 1977 I don't think 25mm "scale," the one that the fantasy miniatures phenomenon was built around, has been suggested for use anywhere. When Gygax says 25mm here he's referring to HO scale, where as he says 1" = 6feet, rather than 25mm "scale" where as I've shown 1" = 5'.

Also, this problem where the rules allow three abreast in a corridor lead Gygax to have a ground scale that was oversized, that is 3/2 size compared with the figure scale. My solution (as I play AD&D by the book) was to base my adventurers on ellipse bases that are 15mm across the short side. That way I can use the 1:1 ground scale without having to overlap the bases.

Now the contradictions. Firstly the movement stat is in inches (") and each inch represents 10' of movement. This dictates a ground scale of 1/2 rather than one of 3/2 as endorsed in the quote above.  Reading the text in isolation and it seems to suggest the gm using a battlemap or floorplans at 1" = 10' but when a fight breaks out essentially you zoom in to 1" = 3' and place some walls and such. But since then it's come out that this is not what was intended.

I also recall in one of the AD&D books there is mention of 30mm scale as the preferred scale (a third scale just to make things even more confusing!) but I can't find the reference it at the moment.

Here's some further reading:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55575

Gygax talking about the 40mm collection he used in the 70s:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11762&p=200693


edit, oh, and I realize ground scale is a digression but I should mention there are a number of different scales of distance depending on whether you're outdoors, in a city, etc, and these are described not in the DMG where you'd expect them but the Player's Handbook.

Quote
MOVEMENT - TIME AND DISTANCE FACTORS
Movement rate is always shown by a numeral followed by the sign for inches thus, 9".  The number of inches moved is scaled to circumstances
and time by modifying either the distance represented or the time period or both.  Movement in the Dungeon: The movement distance in the dungeon is 1"   to 10' over a turn of 10 minutes duration while exploration and mapping  are in progress. If the party is  following a known route or map, the  movement rate is 5 times greater, so each move takes 1/5 of a turn (2  rounds). If the party is fleeing, a11 movement - excluding encumbered  movement, is 10 times faster, so each move takes only 1/10 of a turn, or 1  round. This same movement rate applies to  combat situations, so by  converting each 1"  movement rate to lo', and then taking 1/10 of the round (using segments), the distance a character or monster can travel during the course of combat is easily found:
Distance Traveled in One Movement
Rate  Round (1 minute)  Segment (6 seconds)
6"  60  6'
9"  90'  9'
12"  120'  12'
15"  1 50'  15'
18"  1 80'  18'

If moving but 12' in 6 seconds seems slow, consider the conditions - whether prolonged physical exertion or the threat of hostile counter to the
movement.  Movement Outdoors: The major difference in outdoor movement is  distance and time. Each 1"  equals the number of miles a character or  creature can travel  in one-half day's trekking. Terrain will vary the  movement rate. When an encounter occurs, the movement rate is handled  in the same manner as combat movement in the dungeon.  Movement in Cities: When your party is in an inhabited area, movement
turns are at the same rate as when combat in the dungeon takes place, i.e.  6" = 60' and each move is 1 minute long. This assumes that no map is being made. Mapping takes  10 times  as long,  so movement when mapping is the same as in a dungeon
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 04:45:29 PM by Spooktalker »

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2013, 07:11:06 PM »
<snip>

The question of what Gygax and gamers of the time did is a really fascinating one.

Here's from Chainmail 3rd ed:

<snip>


I received a copy of third edition Chainmail in the rules today!  (I don't regret selling my stained, staples showing rust 2nd edition years ago.  Too much.  The cost of this on Ebay was waaaay more than I should have paid I know.) 

And I must correct my failing memory statements:  see below...

Anyway I had an epiphany when I saw there were TWO table for humans/Non--Human size realtionships.

Human                   30 mm     Human 40 mm   relative to humans

Hobbit, sprite           10 mm                20 mm  (1/3 versus 1/2 sized)
                                                                  some interesting variation! .333 versus .5

Dwarf...Goblin+        20 mm                25 mm  (2/3 versus 5/8 man sized) - .666666 versus .625

Elves, fairies, orcs     25 mm                30 mm  (5/6 versus 3/4 sized) - .833333 versus .75

Balrogs, Ogres, Trolls 40 mm                54 mm (1.333333 versus 1.35 sized  - fairly consistent)

...Giants.....               54 mm               70 mm (1.8 versus 1.75 - quite consistent))

No internal consistency at all it seems.  

But that was a "keystone"   ;) :P  of the various editions of OD&D/BAD&D/AD&D/D&D it seemed.

Gracias,

Glenn
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 07:30:06 PM by Conquistador »

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2013, 07:21:33 PM »
I find the ellipse base thing interesting.

In our graph paper dungeons (10 squares to an inch) we encountered many arguments about how many across which was only worsened when the Sacramento SCA types (which included me) set up a "typical D&D corridor and room" and had people engage in combat (did not include me) between straw bale walls.  Pretending that the SCA has some relation to reality  ;) in the fighting it seemed the rules for corridor fights were both too restrictive and too lenient at the same time.

Can you fight with a polearm in a 10' wide room/corridor - yes, as long your shield men stay alive...  Should you in another question.

Again, I digress...

Gracias,

Glenn

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 07:45:10 PM »
<snip>

The question of what Gygax and gamers of the time did is a really fascinating one.

<snip>

This was the experiences I encountered in Sacramento in the 1970s/early 1980s.

My first metal (after 1/72nd plastic) were referred to as "25 mm scale" (early 1970s) which is a size and not a scale...  We used Der Kriegspieler and contemporary figures for dwarf, elf, etc.  and we had historical figures for humans.  We added in fantasy humans as our games developed.  

Some DMs were unabashed Gygaxesque PC Killers, others (usually the junior high crowd who we legally could not keep out since we met in a public library meeting room) were Monty Hall plus (I played in one dungeon crawl with that crowd at their request since I was an "experienced" DM) - a group of wandering rats yielded my character's group several thousand coins (CP/SP/GP I forget) plus a +3 magical sword.  Afterwards I was politely pointed in my analysis.  They went on and I am sure whether or not they took anything to heed they enjoyed their games which is fine.  Afterwards I was dissected by a killer DM (long story) for playing with the "kids" - I noticed they never asked him to sit in any of their games to help them develop - gee, wonder why.

I can honestly say my Fantasy Adventuring was solidified by three people, Reggie (last name forgotten) who was in the USAF with me - different command, Randy van Vranken who was a war game mentor despite being about 3 - 5 years younger and just graduating from High School when I met him if I remember correctly, and Alan Lucien who taught me how to survive (and recognize/avoid "Killer GMs") in OD&D in the 1970s/early 1980s.  They were the "enablers" in my "lead addiction" and I thank them every time I recall something useful I learned from them in this hobby.  The last two also invited me into their SCA household back when I did the SCA thing.

Gracias,

Glenn
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 07:47:47 PM by Conquistador »

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2013, 07:52:00 PM »
Okay, Gygax used 40 mm figures?  I don't remember Alan Lucien mentioning that ever.  Makes some of the other stuff make sense.   :)  Makes some of the other stuff contradict itself even more a the same time.   :o

Oh well, it's a game and you adapt it to your tastes...

Gracias,

Glenn

Offline Spooktalker

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Re: Just for curiosity sake
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2013, 05:46:12 PM »
Ah, thanks for pointing out that Chainmail comparison chart. That may be the reference to 30mm scale I was looking for, or maybe there are a few others scattered in the books.

Cool to hear about the SCA dungeon crawls! AD&D does make an effort to model the varrying amount of space weapons need, fore example a 2-handed sword needs a full 10 feet, but I doubt may DM's enforce it.

Problem DM's continue right up to the present but the most common bad archetype is probably not the "killer DM" but the "storyteller," that is he essentially scripts the whole campaign from the beginning to mimic a badly written summer blockbuster, with a world-ending threat and end boss, and then players are railroaded along and punished anytime they make a choice that goes against the script.

Okay, Gygax used 40 mm figures?  I don't remember Alan Lucien mentioning that ever.  Makes some of the other stuff make sense.   :)  Makes some of the other stuff contradict itself even more a the same time.   :o


Yeah, the 40mm collection seems odd.  I'd be interested in touring all the historical figures throughout the ages but I haven't come across a historical miniatures wiki at all like the Lost Minis Wiki or Collecting Citadel Miniatures. Maybe there is one and I just haven't heard. Seems odd that there wouldn't be one, though, and if it did exist I'd expect it be well-known.

 

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